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Publication Information: 出版信息：
Book Title: Gorgias. 书名：高尔吉亚
Contributors: 撰稿人：
Robin Waterfield - transltr, Plato - author. 罗宾-沃特菲尔德（Robin Waterfield）--译者tr，柏拉图--作者。
Publisher: Oxford University Press. 出版商：牛津大学出版社牛津大学出版社。
Place of Publication: New York. 出版地：纽约纽约。
Publication Year: 1994. 出版年份：1994 年。
Page Number: 1. 页码： 1.
I have translated the Greek text of E. R. Dodds, Plato: Gorgias ( London: Oxford University Press, 1959), except at 493b2 and 510c3. 我翻译了 E. R. Dodds 的希腊文本《柏拉图：高尔吉亚》（伦敦：牛津大学出版社，1959 年），第 493b2 和 510c3 段除外。
The numbers and letters that appear in the margins are the standard means of precise reference to Plato. They refer to the pages and sections of pages of the edition of Plato’s works by Stephanus ( Henri Estienne), published in Geneva, 1578 . 页边的数字和字母是精确标注柏拉图的标准方法。它们指的是斯特凡努斯（亨利-埃斯蒂安）1578 年在日内瓦出版的柏拉图著作版本的页码和部分页码。
Socrates and his friend Chaerephon arrive outside an unnamed person’s house, just too late to hear the sophist and orator Gorgias, who is visiting Athens from his home town of Leontini in Sicily. They chat to their acquaintance Callicles at the front door, and then move inside. Gorgias is drawn into conversation with Socrates. The characterizations of Gorgias and his disciple Polus are deft and amusing. 苏格拉底和他的朋友柴勒丰来到一个无名氏的家门口，却迟迟没有听到诡辩家兼演说家高尔吉亚的演讲，高尔吉亚正从他的家乡西西里的莱昂提尼访问雅典。他们在门前与熟人凯里克勒斯聊了几句，然后进了屋。高尔吉亚被苏格拉底的谈话吸引住了。苏格拉底对高尔吉亚和他的弟子波吕斯的描写生动有趣。
CALLICLES: This is how you’re supposed to turn up when 447a there’s a war on or a battle to be fought, Socrates. 卡利克勒斯苏格拉底，当有战争或战斗要打时，你就应该这样出场。
SOCRATES: You mean we’ve done the proverbial thing and arrived when the feast is over? Are we too late? 索克拉特：你是说我们做了俗话说的事，在盛宴结束时才赶到？我们来晚了吗？
CALLICLES: Yes, and a very nice feast it was too. Gorgias has just finished presenting a number of fine pieces.* 卡利克勒斯是的，这也是一场非常美妙的盛宴。高尔吉亚刚刚展示了许多精美的作品*。
SOCRATES: Here’s the culprit, Callicles: it’s all Chaerephon’s fault. He made us waste time in the agora. 罪魁祸首来了，卡里克利斯这就是罪魁祸首，凯里克勒斯 这都是凯里冯的错他让我们在广场上浪费时间
CHAEREPHON: Never mind, Socrates. I’ll make things b 没关系，苏格拉底。我会让事情变得更好
better as well, because Gorgias is a friend of mine. I’m sure he’ll present some of his work for us–now or another time, whichever you’d prefer. 更好，因为高尔吉亚是我的朋友。我相信他会为我们展示他的一些作品--现在或其他时间，随你喜欢。
CALLICLES: What’s that, Chaerephon? Does Socrates really want to listen to Gorgias? 卡利克利斯：那是什么，柴勒丰？苏格拉底真的想听高尔吉亚的话吗？
CHAEREPHON: Yes, that’s exactly why we’re here. 是的，这正是我们来这里的原因。
CALLICLES: Well, Gorgias is staying with me and you’re welcome to visit any time you like. He’ll put on a presentation for you. 卡里克斯高尔吉亚和我住在一起 欢迎你随时来访他会为你表演节目的。
SOCRATES: Thanks, Callicles. But do you think he’d be prepared to carry on a conversation with us?* He c professes and teaches a particular branch of expertise, and I want to ask him what it is and what it can do. He can leave the rest of his presentation for another occasion, as you suggested. 谢谢，凯里克勒斯谢谢，凯里克勒斯。我想问问他，这是什么，能做什么。他可以像你建议的那样，把剩下的内容留到别的场合再讲。
CALLICLES: There’s nothing like asking the man himself, Socrates. Actually, you’ve mentioned something that formed part of his presentation. Just a moment ago he was inviting questions on anything anyone here in the house cared to ask him, and he claimed that he’d answer them all. 卡利克勒斯：问苏格拉底本人是最好不过的了。事实上，你提到了他演讲中的一些内容。就在刚才，他还邀请在座的任何一位向他提问，并声称他会一一作答。
SOCRATES: That’s wonderful . . . You ask him, Chaerephon. 索克拉特：太好了你去问他吧，柴勒丰。
CHAEREPHON: What? 什么？
SOCRATES: Who he is. d 他是谁他是谁
CHAEREPHON: What do you mean? 什么意思？
SOCRATES: Well, if making shoes was his job, he’d reply to your question by saying, ‘I’m a shoe-maker.’ Do you see what I mean? 苏格拉底：好吧，如果做鞋是他的工作，他会回答你的问题说：'我是个鞋匠。你明白我的意思吗？
CHAEREPHON: Yes. All right, I’ll ask him. Can you tell me, please, Gorgias, whether Callicles here is telling the truth when he says that you claim to be able to answer any question that’s put to you? 是的。好吧，我问他请你告诉我，高尔吉亚 凯里克勒斯说你能回答向你提出的任何问题 他说的是否属实？
GORGIAS: He is, Chaerephon. That’s exactly what I was 448a doing a short while ago, in fact, and I’ll add that for many years now I’ve never been faced with a question I hadn’t met before. 高尔基亚斯：是的，谢尔丰。事实上，这正是我不久前在做的事，448a 我还要补充一点，多年来，我从未遇到过我以前没有遇到过的问题。
CHAEREPHON: Then you’ll find it easy to answer my question, Gorgias, I’m sure. 那么你会很容易回答我的问题的，高尔吉亚斯，我相信。
GORGIAS: Here’s your opportunity to find out, Chaerephon. 这是你找出答案的机会，Chaerephon。
POLUS: I honestly think you should put your questions to me, Chaerephon, if you don’t mind. I get the impression that Gorgias is tired. He’s just finished a long teaching session. 波吕斯：老实说，如果你不介意的话，我觉得你应该向我提问，凯勒丰。我觉得高尔吉亚很累了。他刚刚上完一堂很长的课。
CHAEREPHON: Do you really think you’ll give me better answers than Gorgias, Polus? 你真的认为你能比高尔吉亚给我更好的答案吗，波鲁斯？
POLUS: What’s the difference, as long as they’re good enough for you? b 波鲁斯：有什么区别呢？
CRAEREPHON: None at all. Here’s my question, then, since that’s what you want. 完全没有那我的问题是 既然你想问这个
POLUS: Go on. 继续。
CHAEREPHON: All right. If Gorgias happened to be in the same line of business as his brother Herodicus, we’d have to call him the same as we call his brother, wouldn’t we? 好吧如果高尔吉亚碰巧和他的兄弟希罗底科斯做同样的生意 我们就得像称呼他的兄弟一样称呼他，不是吗？
POLUS: Yes. 波鲁斯：是的。
CHAEREPHON: In other words, we’d have to call him a doctor. 换句话说，我们得叫他医生。
POLUS: Yes. 波鲁斯：是的。
CHAEREPHON: And if his professional experience was in the same field as Aristophon the son of Aglaophon, or his brother, what would it be right to call him? 凯勒芳：如果他的专业经验与阿格拉丰之子亚里士多芬或他的兄弟相同，那么该怎么称呼他呢？
POLUS: A painter, obviously. 波鲁斯：显然是个画家。
CHAEREPHON: What is his area of expertise, in actual fact? What would it be right to call him? 凯雷丰：事实上，他的专业领域是什么？叫他什么合适？
POLUS: Chaerephon, experience and experimentation have led people to develop professional expertise in a number of areas. Experience brings expertise to the process of human existence, while inexperience leaves it haphazard. Now, there are various areas of expertise, variously practised by various people, but the best are in the hands of the best practitioners. Gorgias here is one of them, and the area of expertise in which he is engaged is the finest there is.* 波鲁斯：柴雷丰，经验和实验使人们在许多领域形成了专业知识。经验为人类的生存过程带来了专业知识，而缺乏经验则使人类的生存过程显得杂乱无章。现在，专业领域多种多样，从业者也各不相同，但最好的专业掌握在最好的从业者手中。这里的高尔吉亚就是其中之一，他所从事的专业领域是最好的*。
SOCRATES: It certainly looks as though Polus is well d qualified to speak, Gorgias, but he’s not doing what he promised Chaerephon 高尔吉亚看起来波吕斯确实有资格说话，高尔吉亚，但他并没有像他答应过的那样去做。
he’d do. 他会做的。
GORGIAS: Why’s that, Socrates? 为什么，苏格拉底？
SOCRATES: He doesn’t really seem to me to be answering the question. 索克拉特：在我看来，他并没有回答这个问题。
GORGIAS: Why don’t you question him, then, if you want? 那你为什么不质问他呢？
SOCRATES: I don’t want to if there’s a chance that you might be willing to answer my questions. I’d much rather ask you. I mean, I can tell from Polus’ speech that he’s more interested in rhetoric, as it’s called, than in carrying on a conversation. 我不想如果你有可能愿意回答我的问题，我也不想回答。我更愿意问你。我的意思是，从波吕斯的言谈中我可以看出，他对所谓的修辞学更感兴趣，而不是进行对话。
POLUS: What gives you that impression, Socrates? e 波鲁斯：苏格拉底，你怎么会有这种印象？
SOCRATES: Because when Chaerephon asks you what Gorgias’ area of expertise is, Polus, you come out with a eulogy of it–as if someone had been running it down–instead of telling us what it is. 索克拉特斯波吕斯，当柴勒丰问你高尔吉亚的专长是什么时，你却对他大加讴歌--就好像有人把他的专长捋顺了似的--而不是告诉我们他的专长是什么。
POLUS: But didn’t I say that it’s the finest area of expertise there is? 波鲁斯：但我不是说这是最好的专业领域吗？
SOCRATES: You certainly did, but no one asked you what qualities Gorgias’ area of expertise has. The question was what it is, and what Giorgias should be called. You gave excellent, concise answers to the questions Chaerephon had previously put to you, so 索克拉特但没人问你高尔吉亚的专长是什么。问题在于它是什么，以及高尔吉亚应该被称为什么。你对柴勒丰先前向你提出的问题作了出色而简明的回答，所以
couldn’t you do the same now, and tell us what 449a 难道你现在就不能这样做，告诉我们 449a
Gorgias’ area of expertise is and what we should call him? Or rather, Gorgias, won’t you tell us yourself what your area of expertise is, and so what to call you? 高尔吉亚的专业领域是什么，我们应该怎么称呼他？或者说，高尔吉亚，你自己不告诉我们你的专业领域是什么吗？
GORGIAS: It’s rhetoric, Socrates. 这是修辞，苏格拉底。
SOCRATES: We’d better call you a rhetorician, then? 索克拉特：那我们还是叫你修辞学家吧？
GORGIAS: A good one, Socrates, if you want to call me what (as Homer puts it) 'I avow I am. ^("I* "){ }^{\text {I* }} 高尔吉亚斯：说得好，苏格拉底，如果你想称我为（荷马所说的）'我承认我是'的话。 ^("I* "){ }^{\text {I* }}
SOCRATES: I’ll gladly do so. 我很乐意我很乐意
GORGIAS: Then that’s what you can call me. 那你就这么叫我吧
SOCRATES: What about training other people in rhetoric b too? Should we attribute this ability to you? 索克拉特：那你也训练别人修辞吗？我们应该把这种能力归功于你吗？
GORGIAS: Yes, that’s what I offer to do, here in Athens and elsewhere as well. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的，这就是我在雅典和其他地方提出要做的事情。
SOCRATES: Now, would you mind if our discussion continued the way it’s begun, Gorgias, with you asking a question here and answering one there? Would it be all right with you if we postponed the kind of lengthy speech-making which Polus introduced? Please keep your promise and give short answers to questions. 索克拉特：现在，高尔吉亚，你不介意我们的讨论继续按照开始的方式进行吧，你在这里提出一个问题，在那里回答一个问题？如果我们推迟波吕斯提出的那种长篇大论，你会同意吗？请遵守你的诺言，简短地回答问题。
GORGIAS: Some questions need long speeches to answer them, Socrates, but all the same I’ll try to keep my 高尔吉亚斯：有些问题需要长篇大论才能回答，苏格拉底，但我还是要尽量保持我的
answers as short as possible. In fact, that’s another c 答案越短越好。事实上，这也是
of my claims–that no one can find a more concise way to express an idea than me. 没有人比我更能简明扼要地表达一个观点。
SOCRATES: That’s what we need, Gorgias. A display of precision is exactly what I’d like from you, and longwindedness can wait. 这正是我们需要的，高尔吉亚这正是我们需要的 高尔吉亚我需要的正是你的精确性，而啰嗦可以等一等。
GORGIAS: All right. I’ll leave you in no doubt that what you’re hearing is as precise as it gets. 好吧我会让你毫无疑问地相信 你听到的是最精确的信息
Socrates asks what Gorgias’ area of expertise, rhetoric, is concerned with. Gorgias says ‘speech’, but Socrates argues, first, that all areas of expertise are concerned to some extent with speaking, and, second, that a number of other areas of expertise are as essentially concerned with speech as rhetoric is. Gorgias’ first attempt at defining rhetoric fails because it is too wide. The Greek for ‘spoken word’ (logos) is also the Greek for ‘written word’, but a modern reader should bear in mind that for the Greeks speech was far more primary than it is for us today. Logos also means ‘account’, 'argument, ‘definition’, and ‘rational explanation’ (as distinct from a story); all these translations will occur in the course of the dialogue. 苏格拉底问高尔吉亚的专业领域--修辞学--与什么有关。高尔吉亚说是 "言语"，但苏格拉底认为，首先，所有的专业领域在某种程度上都与言语有关；其次，其他一些专业领域与修辞学一样，本质上都与言语有关。高尔吉亚第一次尝试给修辞学下定义，但因为范围太广而失败了。希腊语中的 "口语"（logos）也是希腊语中的 "书面语"，但现代读者应该记住，对希腊人来说，言语比我们今天的言语更重要。Logos 也有 "叙述"、"论证"、"定义 "和 "合理解释"（有别于故事）的意思；所有这些译法都会在对话过程中出现。
SOCRATES: Here we go, then. Now, you describe yourself as an expert in rhetoric and you also claim to pass it on to other people too. But what aspect of life d is rhetoric concerned with? The province of weaving, for instance, is the manufacture of clothes, wouldn’t you say? 索克拉特：那我们开始吧。现在，你说自己是修辞学专家，还说能把修辞学传授给别人。但修辞学与生活的哪一方面有关呢？比如说，织布就是制造衣服，你说呢？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And music is concerned with the composition of tunes? 索克拉特：音乐是关于曲调的创作吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: I’m really impressed with your answers, Gorgias. I can’t imagine how they could be shorter. 高尔吉亚我对你的回答印象深刻，高尔吉亚。我无法想象它们还能更短。
GORGIAS: Yes, I think I’m doing pretty well, Socrates. 高尔吉亚斯：是的，我想我做得很好，苏格拉底。
SOCRATES: You’re right. Now then, I’d like to hear what you have to say in the same vein about rhetoric as well. What aspect of life does it know about? 索克拉特：你说得对。那么，我想听听你对修辞学也有同样的看法。它了解生活的哪些方面？
GORGIAS: Speaking. e GORGIAS: Speaking.
SOCRATES: In what sense, Gorgias? Do you mean explaining to people when they’re ill what regimen to follow to get better? 索克拉特：什么意思，高尔吉亚？你是指在人们生病的时候，向他们解释应该采取什么样的治疗方法才能好起来吗？
GORGIAS: No. 没有。
SOCRATES: In that case, rhetoric isn’t concerned with all speech. 索克拉底斯：那么，修辞学并不涉及所有的言语。
GORGIAS: No, of course not. 戈尔吉亚斯：不，当然不是。
SOCRATES: But it does make people competent at speaking. 苏格拉底：但它确实能让人变得能说会道。
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And also at understanding what they’re speaking about? 索克拉特：还能理解他们在说什么吗？
GORGIAS: Naturally. 当然。
SOCRATES: Now, isn’t it expertise in medicine, which we referred to a moment ago, which makes one com- 450a petent at understanding and speaking about people who are ill? 索克拉特现在，我们刚才提到的医学专门知识，不正是使人善于理解和谈论生病的人吗？
GORGIAS: Of course. 当然。
SOCRATES: So it seems to follow that medicine is concerned with speaking too.* GORGIAS: Yes. 索克拉底斯：高尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: With speaking about illness, anyway. Yes? 无论如何不管怎么说，都是关于疾病的。是吗?
GORGIAS: Definitely. 戈尔吉亚斯：当然。
SOCRATES: Would you say, then, that physical education is also concerned with speaking–with speaking about physical fitness and unfitness? 索克拉特那么，你是否可以说，体育教育也与谈论--谈论身体健康与否有关？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And the same goes for every other area of expertise as well, 苏格拉底：其他领域的专业知识也是如此、
Gorgias. Every single one of them is concerned with speech, when the matter being b talked about happens to be the one which is the province of its particular expertise. 高尔吉亚当谈论的问题恰好属于其专业领域时，每一个人都与言论有关。
GORGIAS: I suppose so. 我想是的。
SOCRATES: Given that you’re defining rhetoric as the area of expertise which is concerned with speech, then, why don’t you describe any form of expertise as rhetoric, since expertise and speaking always go together? 索克拉特既然你把修辞学定义为与说话有关的专门知识领域，那么，既然专门知识和说话总是联系在一起的，你为什么不把任何形式的专门知识都说成是修辞学呢？
GORGIAS: Because the knowledge which other areas of expertise possess is more or less entirely confined to manual work and that kind of activity, whereas there is no element of manual work in rhetoric. It relies entirely on the spoken word in performing its task 戈尔吉亚斯：因为其他专业领域所拥有的知识或多或少完全局限于体力劳动和这类活动，而修辞学中没有体力劳动的成分。它完全依靠口语来完成任务
and achieving its results. That’s why I maintain that c 并取得成果。这就是为什么我坚持认为
the province of rhetoric is speech, and–as I say-I think I’m right. 修辞学的范畴是演讲，而且--正如我所说--我认为我是对的。
SOCRATES: I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say about rhetoric, but perhaps it’ll become clear later. Here’s a question for you, though. We’ve got these areas of expertise, right? 修辞学我不太明白你想说的修辞学是什么意思 但也许以后就会明白了不过，我有个问题要问你。我们有这些专业领域，对吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: Well, some of them are largely taken up with practical activity and have little need of speaking. In fact, some of them don’t need the spoken word at all: even complete silence wouldn’t stop them accomplishing whatever it is their expertise is for. I’m thinking here of painting, sculpture, and so on and so forth. I suppose these are the kinds of areas of expertise you were talking about when you said that 索克拉特斯有些人主要从事实践活动，不需要说话。事实上，有些人根本不需要说话：即使完全沉默，也不会妨碍他们完成自己的专长。我这里指的是绘画、雕塑等等。我想这些就是你所说的专业领域吧。
there are some which rhetoric bears no relation to. d Or am I wrong? d 还是我说错了？
GORGIAS: No, you’re quite right, Socrates. 不，你说得很对，苏格拉底。
SOCRATES: Then there are other areas of expertise which rely entirely on speech for their accomplishments. In these cases it’s hardly an exaggeration to say that practical action isn’t important to them at all, or isn’t particularly important. I’m thinking of mathematics, for instance, and arithmetic and geometry-not forgetting backgammon*–and there are plenty of others as well. Some of them give more or less equal weight to words and action, but most of them favour words and in general rely exclusively on them in performing their tasks and achieving their results. e 苏格拉底：还有一些专业领域的成就完全依赖于言语。在这种情况下，说实际行动对他们根本不重要，或者说不是特别重要，一点也不为过。例如，我想到的是数学、算术和几何--别忘了还有西洋双陆棋*--还有很多其他的。它们中的一些或多或少对语言和行动给予了同等的重视，但它们中的大多数都偏爱语言，在完成任务和取得成果时一般都完全依赖语言。
These are the kinds of areas of expertise among which you’re counting rhetoric, I 我认为，这些都是你认为属于修辞学的专业领域。
take it. 拿着
GORGIAS: You’re right. 你说得对。
SOCRATES: But I’m sure you wouldn’t want actually to identify rhetoric with any of them. I know that’s what it sounded as though you were saying, when you defined rhetoric as the area of expertise which relies on speech to achieve its results, and if someone wanted to pick a quarrel he might take you up on this point and say, ‘So you’re identifying rhetoric with mathematics, are you, Gorgias?’ But I’m sure you’re not actually identifying rhetoric with mathematics or geometry. 索克拉特：但我相信，你并不想把修辞学与它们中的任何一个相提并论。我知道，当你把修辞学定义为依靠言语来实现其结果的专业领域时，听起来好像是这么说的。如果有人想找茬，他可能会就这一点跟你争辩说：'那么你是把修辞学和数学相提并论了，是吗，高尔吉亚？'但我敢肯定，你实际上并没有把修辞学与数学或几何学相提并论。
Socrates suggests that Gorgias can retain his description of rhetoric, but should narrow it down by pinpointing its particular domain or subject-matter. Gorgias replies grandiosely that rhetoric is concerned with the most important aspects of human life, by which he turns out to mean politics. Rhetoric is the art of persuading others to do what you want them to do, especially in the political arena. Socrates continues to prod Gorgias until he narrows the sphere of rhetoric down further, to morality, and then further still to: ‘Rhetoric is an agent of the kind of persuasion which is designed to produce conviction, but not to educate people, about matters of right and wrong.’ 苏格拉底建议，高尔吉亚可以保留他对修辞学的描述，但应缩小其范围，指出修辞学的特定领域或主题。高尔吉亚冠冕堂皇地回答说，修辞学涉及人类生活中最重要的方面，而他所指的正是政治。修辞学是一门说服他人做你想让他们做的事的艺术，尤其是在政治领域。苏格拉底继续催促高尔吉亚，直到他把修辞的范围进一步缩小到道德，然后又进一步缩小到："修辞是人类生活中最重要的方面：修辞是一种说服的媒介，它的目的是让人们对是非曲直产生信念，而不是教育人们。
SOCRATES: All right, then, please will you finish answering my question yourself, in the terms in which I asked it. Given that rhetoric is one of those areas of expertise which rely heavily on the spoken word, but that there are in fact others which fit this description too, please try to tell us what the particular province is in which rhetoric achieves its results by means of speech. Here’s an example. Imagine someone taking me up on one of the areas of expertise I mentioned a moment ago and asking, ‘What is mathematics, Socrates?’ b 索克拉特：好吧，那就请你按照我的提问方式，自己回答完我的问题。鉴于修辞学是非常依赖口语的专业领域之一，但事实上还有其他领域也符合这种描述，请你试着告诉我们，修辞学是在什么特殊的领域里通过言语取得成果的。这里有一个例子。想象一下，有人就我刚才提到的某个专业领域向我发问：'苏格拉底，数学是什么？
'It’s one of the areas of expertise which rely on words to achieve their results, ’ I’d tell him, copying the reply you gave us a short while ago. '这是靠文字来实现结果的专业领域之一，'我会告诉他，复制你不久前给我们的答复。
‘But what is it concerned with?’ he’d go on to ask. 他接着问：'但它与什么有关呢？
‘Odd and even numbers of any quantity,’ I’d answer. 奇数和偶数的任何数量，"我会回答。
‘And what do you call arithmetic?’ he’d ask next. '接下来他会问'你把算术叫什么？
'That’s another area of expertise which relies on words to achieve its results, ’ I’d say. '这是另一个依靠文字取得成果的专业领域，'我说。
‘And what does it deal with?’ he’d continue. '他继续问道：'那它是怎么处理的呢？
My reply would sound like a political statute: 我的回答听起来像是政治规约：
‘Whereas in some respects arithmetic resembles c '而算术在某些方面类似于 C
mathematics–in that they are both concerned with odd and even numbers-nevertheless there is this difference between them, that arithmetic investigates the quantitative relationships that odd and even numbers form between themselves and one another.’ 尽管如此，它们之间还是有区别的，那就是算术研究奇数和偶数之间的数量关系。
And suppose it was astronomy which was the subject of his next question, and I described it as another area of expertise which relies on words for all its results. And suppose he asked, ‘But what are astronomers’ words about, Socrates?’, I’d reply, ‘They’re concerned with the movements of the sun, moon, and other heavenly bodies, and their relative speeds.’ 假设他下一个问题的主题是天文学，而我把天文学描述为另一个依靠文字取得成果的专业领域。假设他问："苏格拉底，天文学家的语言是关于什么的？"我会回答："他们关注的是太阳、月亮和其他天体的运动，以及它们的相对速度。
GEORGIAS: And you’d be right, Socrates. d 你是对的，苏格拉底。
SOCRATES: All right, Gorgias, it’s your turn. Rhetoric is one of those areas of expertise which rely on the spoken word for all their accomplishments and achievements. Yes? 好吧，高尔吉亚好了，高尔吉亚，该你了。修辞学是一门依靠口头语言来取得成就和成就的专业领域。有问题吗？
GEORGIAS: Yes. 是的。
SOCRATES: Please tell us, then, what its province is. What aspect of life is the rhetorical use of the spoken word concerned with? 索克拉特：那么，请告诉我们，它属于什么范畴。口语修辞涉及生活的哪个方面？
GEORGIAS: The most important and valuable aspect of human life, Socrates. 人类生活最重要、最有价值的方面，苏格拉底。
SOCRATES: Now, here’s another idea of yours, Gorgias, which is open to question and in need of a great deal of clarification. For instance, I’m sure you’ve heard e the song people sing at parties which offers a list of human advantages: ‘The very best thing is health, second good looks, and third’–according to whoever made up the song–'honest wealth. ^(1**){ }^{1 *} 索克拉特：现在，高尔吉亚，你的另一个观点值得商榷，需要进一步澄清。例如，我想你一定听过人们在聚会上唱的那首歌，歌中列举了人的优点：最好的东西是健康，其次是美貌，第三"--据编歌者说--"诚实的财富。 ^(1**){ }^{1 *}
GORGIAS: Yes, I have. But why are you bringing it up? 是的，我有。但你为什么要提呢？
SOCRATES: Well, suppose a doctor, a trainer, and a busi- 452a nessman–who are the people responsible for the qualities the song-writer commended–were standing right there next to you. And suppose the doctor went first and said, 'Socrates, Gorgias ‘isn’t telling you the truth. The greatest of human blessings isn’t covered by his area of expertise, but by mine.’ ‘You say it’s your province,’ I’d reply, ‘but what are you?’ ‘I’m a doctor,’ he’d presumably answer. 苏格拉底好吧，假设有一位医生、一位教练和一位商人--他们都是对歌曲作者所赞扬的品质负有责任的人--就站在你旁边。假设医生先开口说：'苏格拉底，高尔吉亚没有告诉你真相。'人类最大的幸福不在他的专业领域，而在我的专业领域。'"你说这是你的专业，"我会回答，"但你是什么？""我是医生，"他大概会回答。
‘What do you mean? Is your area of expertise responsible for the greatest of human blessings?’ 什么意思？你的专业领域是人类最大的福祉吗？
‘Of course, Socrates,’ he’d probably reply, ‘because its product is health. And what could be better for people than health?’ b 当然，苏格拉底，"他可能会回答，"因为它的产品是健康。还有什么比健康更有益于人们呢？
And imagine the trainer going next and saying, ‘Listen, Socrates, if Gorgias can show you that the product of his area of expertise is more beneficial for people than I can show mine to be, I’d share the doctor’s surprise.’ 想象一下，培训师接下来会说：'听着，苏格拉底，如果高尔吉亚能向你证明，他专业领域的产品比我的更有益于人们，我会和医生一样感到惊讶。
I’d ask him the same question as before: ‘Who are you, sir? What’s your job?’ 我会问他和以前一样的问题：'你是谁，先生？你是做什么的？
‘I’m a trainer,’ he’d reply, ‘and my job is making people’s bodies attractive and fit.’ 我是一名教练，"他回答说，"我的工作就是让人们的身体变得更有魅力、更健美。
And then it would be the businessman’s turn to speak, and I see his attitude as one of total disdain. 然后轮到商人发言，我看到他的态度是完全不屑一顾。
‘I want you to consider, Socrates,’ he’d say, ‘whether you really think that anything which Gorgias or anyone else can procure is more beneficial than wealth.’ quad\quad c '苏格拉底，我希望你考虑一下，'他会说，'你是否真的认为，高尔吉亚或其他人所能获得的任何东西都比财富更有益。 quad\quad c
‘What?’ we’d say. ‘Is wealth yours to produce?’ 我们会说'什么？财富是你们创造的吗？
‘Yes.’ 是的
‘What are you, then?’ 那你是什么人？
‘A businessman.’ 一个商人
‘And in your opinion people can have no greater advantage than wealth?’ we’ll ask. 在你看来，人们最大的优势莫过于财富？
‘Of course they can’t,’ he’ll reply. 他们当然不能，"他会回答。
‘But Gorgias here doesn’t agree,’ we’d point out. 但这里的高尔吉亚并不同意，"我们会指出。
‘He claims that his area of expertise is responsible for something which is more beneficial than anything yours can produce.’ '他声称，他的专业领域所做的事情比你们能做的任何事情都更有益。
And the businessman’s next question will obviously be: ‘What is this wonderful thing? Gorgias had 而商人的下一个问题显然会是：'这美妙的东西是什么？高尔吉亚曾
better tell us.’ 最好告诉我们
So, Gorgias, please add their imagined request to mine, and tell us what this 所以，高尔吉亚斯，请把他们想象的请求加到我的请求上，告诉我们这
thing is which is the greatest blessing people can have, according to you, and which you can procure for them. 问题是，按照你的说法，你能为人们带来的最大祝福是什么？
GORGIAS: When I say there’s nothing better, Socrates, that is no more than the truth. It is responsible for personal freedom and enables an individual to gain political power in his community. 高尔吉亚斯：当我说没有比这更好的了，苏格拉底，这就是事实。它对个人自由负责，使个人能够在社会中获得政治权力。
SOCRATES: Yes, but what is it? 索克拉特：是的，但那是什么呢？
GORGIAS: I’m talking about the ability to use the spoken e word to persuade–to persuade the jurors in the courts, the members of the Council, the citizens attending the Assembly*–in short, to win over any and every form of public meeting of the citizen body. Armed with this ability, in fact, the doctor would be your slave, the trainer would be yours to command, and that businessman would turn out to be making money not for himself, but for someone else–for you with your ability to speak and to persuade the masses. 戈尔吉亚斯：我说的是用口头语言说服的能力，说服法院的陪审员、议会的议员、参加大会的公民*--总之，赢得公民团体任何形式的公开会议的能力。事实上，有了这种能力，医生就会成为你的奴隶，驯兽师就会听你的指挥，商人就会变成不是为他自己赚钱，而是为别人赚钱，为你赚钱，因为你有说话和说服群众的能力。
SOCRATES: Gorgias, I think you’ve finally come very close to revealing what you think rhetoric does. If I’ve 453a understood you correctly, you’re saying that rhetoric is the agent of persuasion-that persuasion is the sum total and the fundamental goal of all its activity. Is that right? Or do you want to claim that rhetoric has further abilities, apart from winning over the minds of an audience? 高尔吉亚高尔吉亚，我想你终于说出了你认为修辞学的作用。如果我453a没有理解错的话，你是说修辞学是说服的媒介--说服是修辞学所有活动的总和和根本目标。是这样吗？还是说，除了赢得听众的心智之外，修辞学还有其他能力？
GORGIAS: No, Socrates, I don’t. I think you’ve described it well enough. That is fundamentally what rhetoric does. 不，苏格拉底，我没有。我想你已经说得很清楚了。从根本上说，这就是修辞学的作用。
SOCRATES: Well, I’ve got something to tell you, Gorgias. You should be aware that I’m a prime example–or so I’m persuaded–of the type of person who en- b gages in conversation purely because he wants to understand the topic under discussion. I’m like that myself, I believe, and I hope you are too. 高尔吉亚我有事要告诉你 高尔吉亚你应该知道，我是一个典型的例子--或者我是这么认为的--那种在谈话中喋喋不休的人，纯粹是因为他想了解所讨论的话题。我相信我自己就是这样的人，我希望你也是。
GORGIAS: Why, Socrates? 为什么，苏格拉底？
SOCRATES: I’ll tell you straight away. The point is, you see, that I don’t fully understand what this rhetoricbased persuasion you’re talking about is, and what it is persuasion about. This is not to say that I don’t at least have a vague idea of what you mean it to be, and what its sphere of operation is, but all the same I’m going to ask you to explain what this rhetoric based persuasion is and what its province is. You c may wonder why I’m asking you for an explanation, and not stating my own view of the matter, however vague that may be. It doesn’t actually have anything to do with you; I just want the course of the discussion to show us as clearly as 索克拉特：我直接告诉你。你看，问题的关键在于，我并不完全明白你所说的修辞学式的说服是什么，它是关于什么的说服。这并不是说，我至少对你所说的 "基于修辞的说服 "的含义及其作用范围没有一个模糊的概念，但我还是要请你解释一下，"基于修辞的说服 "到底是什么，它的作用范围又是什么。你可能会问，我为什么要请你解释，而不是陈述我自己对这个问题的看法，不管我的看法多么模糊。实际上，这与你没有任何关系；我只是希望在讨论的过程中，让我们尽可能清楚地看到
possible what it is we’re talking about. I think you’ll agree that it’s fair for me to question you if you look at it this way. Suppose my question had actually been what sort of painter Zeuxis is, and you’d replied that he paints figures, wouldn’t it be fair for me to have asked you what kinds of figures he paints, and where his work can be seen? 可能是我们在谈论什么。我想你会同意，如果你这样看，我问你问题是公平的。假设我的问题实际上是宙斯是什么样的画家，而你回答说他画人物，那么我问你他画什么样的人物，在哪里可以看到他的作品，这难道不公平吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And it would be fair because there are other dd painters who paint a wide variety of different kinds of figures? 索克拉特：因为还有其他 dd 画家画了各种各样不同的人物，这样就公平了吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: Whereas if Zeuxis were the only painter in the world, your answer would have been fine. Yes? 如果宙西斯是世界上唯一的画家而如果世界上只有宙西斯一个画家，你的回答就会很好。是这样吗？
GORGIAS: Of course. 当然。
SOCRATES: All right. Now, what about rhetoric? Is rhetoric the only area of expertise whose product is persuasion, do you think, or are there others too? Here’s what I’m getting at. Is it or isn’t it the case that any teacher of any subject persuades his students of what he’s trying to get them to understand? 好吧好吧那么修辞学呢？你认为修辞学是唯一以说服为目的的专业领域吗？这就是我想说的。是不是任何学科的老师都会说服他的学生理解他想让他们理解的东西？
GORGIAS: Of course he does, Socrates. Persuasion is essential to teaching. 当然，苏格拉底。说服是教学的关键。
SOCRATES: Let’s have another look, in this context, at e the same areas of expertise we were talking about a short while ago. Doesn’t mathematics teach us the properties of number? Isn’t that what a mathematician does? 索克拉底斯在这种情况下，让我们再看一看我们刚才谈到的同样的专业知识领域。数学不是教我们数的性质吗？这不就是数学家的工作吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And doesn’t he persuade us about them as well? 索克拉特：他不也在说服我们吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: It follows that mathematics is another agent of persuasion. 苏格拉底：由此可见，数学是另一种说服手段。
GORGIAS: I suppose so. 我想是的。
SOCRATES: Now, if we were asked what kind of persuasion it is an agent of, and what it is persuasive about, we’d presumably answer that it is an agent of educational persuasion, and that its province is odd and even numbers and their quantities. And we could do 454a 索克拉底斯现在，如果有人问我们，它是哪种劝说的媒介，它劝说什么，我们大概会回答，它是教育劝说的媒介，它的领域是奇数和偶数及其数量。我们可以这样做 454a
the same for all the other areas of expertise we mentioned a short while ago–we could show not just that they are agents of persuasion, but also what particular kind of persuasion they are agents of, and what their spheres of operation are. Do you agree? 我们不仅可以证明他们是劝说者，还可以证明他们是哪种特定的劝说者，以及他们的活动范围是什么。你们同意吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: So rhetoric isn’t the only agent of persuasion. 索克拉底斯：所以修辞并不是唯一的说服手段。
GORGIAS: You’re right. 你说得对。
SOCRATES: Well, given that other areas of expertise produce the same result and rhetoric isn’t an isolated case, wouldn’t it be fair for us next to ask the same question we asked about Zeuxis and his painting? Faced with the claim that rhetoric is an agent of persuasion, we should ask, ‘Yes, but what kind of persuasion does rhetoric produce, and what is its sphere of operation?’ Don’t you think that’s a fair question? b 索克拉特斯好吧，既然其他领域的专家也会产生同样的结果，修辞学也不是一个孤立的例子，那么，我们接下来提出与宙西斯和他的绘画同样的问题，不是很公平吗？面对修辞学是一种说服媒介的说法，我们应该问：'是的，但修辞学产生什么样的说服效果，它的作用范围是什么？'你不认为这是一个公平的问题吗？
GORGIAS: Yes, I do. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的，我知道。
SOCRATES: In that case, Gorgias, please will you answer it? 索克拉特：既然如此，高尔吉亚，请你回答吧。
GORGIAS: Well, Socrates, I think–to repeat what I was saying not long ago–that its effect is to persuade people in the kinds of mass meetings which happen in lawcourts and so on; and I think its province is right and wrong. 高尔吉亚斯：好吧，苏格拉底，我认为--重复一下我不久前说过的话--它的作用是在法院等地方举行的那种群众集会上说服人们；我认为它的作用有对有错。
SOCRATES: Actually, you’ve exactly confirmed my suspicions, Gorgias, about the sort of persuasion you meant and its province as well. Now, I hope you won’t be surprised if a little later I ask you the same kind of question again–the kind of question which asks for further clarification, when something seems to be clear already. As I say, there’s nothing personal in these c questions; they’re only meant to let the discussion proceed in due order, and to stop us getting into the habit of pre-empting the other person’s meaning as a result of having half-formed ideas about it. I just want you to be able to develop your own views–in keeping with whatever you had in mind at the outset–in your own preferred way. 索克拉底事实上，高尔吉亚，你完全证实了我的猜测，我猜测你指的是哪种劝说，以及劝说的范围。现在，如果过一会儿我再问你同样的问题，我希望你不要感到惊讶--这种问题要求进一步澄清，而有些事情似乎已经很清楚了。正如我所说的，这些问题并不是针对个人的；它们只是为了让讨论按部就班地进行，并防止我们养成习惯，由于对对方的意思一知半解而先入为主。我只是希望你们能够用自己喜欢的方式形成自己的观点，与你们一开始的想法保持一致。
GORGIAS: I certainly can’t see anything wrong with that, Socrates. 高尔吉亚斯：我当然看不出有什么不妥，苏格拉底。
SOCRATES: All right, then. Here’s something else for us to think about. You do recognize that there are situations when we say ‘I’ve been taught’, don’t you? 好吧好吧还有一件事值得我们思考。你知道在有些情况下我们会说'我被教导过'，对吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And also when we say ‘I’m convinced’? 索克拉特：当我们说'我确信'的时候也是这样吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: Now, do you think that the state of having d been taught something is the same as the state of having been convinced? Is learning the same as conviction, or different? 索克拉特：现在，你认为受教的状态和被说服的状态是一样的吗？学习与被说服是相同的，还是不同的？
GORGIAS: In my opinion, Socrates, they’re different. 高尔吉亚斯：在我看来，苏格拉底，它们是不同的。
SOCRATES: Yes, you’re right, and here’s the proof of it. If you were asked, ’ Gorgias, can conviction be either true or false?’, you’d answer yes, I’m sure. 是的，你是对的是的，你说得对，这就是证据。如果有人问你，'高尔吉亚，信念可以是真的，也可以是假的吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: But can knowledge be either true or false? 索克拉特：知识有真有假吗？
GORGIAS: Certainly not. 戈尔吉亚斯：当然不是。
SOCRATES: Obviously, then, conviction and knowledge aren’t the same. 索克拉特：那么，信念和知识显然是不一样的。
GORGIAS: Right. 没错。
SOCRATES: All the same, it isn’t only people who’ve e learned something who have been persuaded of it; people who’ve been convinced of something have as well. 苏格拉底同样，不光是学过东西的人被说服了，被某些东西说服的人也被说服了。
GORGIAS: True. 戈尔吉亚斯：没错。
SOCRATES: So we’d better think in terms of two kinds of persuasion, one of which confers conviction without understanding, while the other confers knowledge. 索克拉底斯因此，我们最好从两种劝说的角度来思考，一种劝说只给人信念而不给人理解，另一种劝说则给人知识。
GORGIAS: All right. 好的
SOCRATES: Which of these two kinds of persuasion, then, in the province of right and wrong, is the effect rhetoric has on people when they’re assembled in lawcourts and so on? Is it the kind which leads to conviction without understanding, or the kind which leads to understanding? 索克拉底斯那么，在对与错的问题上，当人们聚集在法庭上时，修辞对他们产生的影响是这两种劝说中的哪一种呢？是那种让人信服而不理解的说服，还是那种让人理解的说服？
GORGIAS: The answer’s obvious, Socrates: it’s the kind that leads to conviction. 答案是显而易见的，苏格拉底：这是一种让人信服的答案。
SOCRATES: It turns out, then, that rhetoric is an agent of 索克拉底斯那么，原来修辞学是一种
the kind of persuasion which is designed to produce 旨在产生以下效果的说服方式 455 a455 a
conviction, but not to educate people, about matters of right and wrong. 是为了说服人，而不是为了教育人，让人明白是非曲直。
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: A rhetorician, then, isn’t concerned to educate the people assembled in lawcourts and so on about right and wrong; all he wants to do is persuade them. I mean, I shouldn’t think it’s possible for him to get so many people to understand such important matters in such a short time. 索克拉底那么，一个修辞学家并不关心如何教育那些聚集在法庭上的人们明辨是非，他所要做的只是说服他们。我的意思是，我认为他不可能在这么短的时间内让这么多人明白这么重要的事情。
GORGIAS: No, that’s right. 戈尔吉亚斯：不，没错。
Against the background of this definition of rhetoric, Socrates argues that it is of limited value. Most aspects of life are covered by specialists, to whom we turn when we need advice. Gorgias acknowledges the role of specialists, but replies that rhetoric influences events and then hands them over to the various specialists. A rhetorician could even persuade people that he was a specialist of some kind, when he wasn’t. However, Gorgias quickly explains that he’s not recommending this kind of abuse of the immense power of rhetoric and concludes that when that happens one should blame the practitioner, not people like himself, who merely teach rhetoric. 根据修辞学的这一定义，苏格拉底认为它的价值有限。生活中的大多数方面都有专家，当我们需要建议时，就会求助于他们。高尔吉亚承认专家的作用，但他回答说，修辞学影响事件，然后把它们交给不同的专家。一个修辞学家甚至可以说服人们相信他是某种专家，而实际上他并不是。然而，高尔吉亚很快解释说，他并不推荐这种滥用修辞学巨大力量的行为，并得出结论说，一旦发生这种情况，人们应该责怪修辞学家，而不是像他这样只是教授修辞学的人。
SOCRATES: Come on, then, let’s see what it is we’re actually saying about rhetoric. You see, I have to tell b you that I can’t ye: make up my mind what to think about it. When there’s a public meeting in Athens to elect a doctor or a shipwright or any other professional, the purpose of the meeting is obviously to choose the person with the greatest expertise for each post, so it’s not going to be a rhetorician who advises them under these circumstances, is it? They’re not going to use rhetoricians to advise them when there are fortifications to be built or harbours or dockyards to be constructed: they’ll use master builders. Again, they’re not going to use rhetoricians to advise them on who to elect to military command or on troop movements in combat or on capturing enemy territory: it’ll be military experts who advise them c under these circumstances, not rhetoricians.* What are your thoughts about this, Gorgias? I mean, you’re a rhetorician, you say, and you train others to be rhetoricians too, so it would be good to hear what you have to say about your own area of expertise. You should bear in mind our present situation and realize that I have your best interests at heart. It’s quite possible that there are people here in the house with us who’d like to become students of yours . . . yes, I can see a few candidates–well, quite a lot, in fact. They might be too embarrassed to subject you to questioning, so as I put my questions, you should imagine that it’s actually they who are asking d you, ‘What will attending your courses hold for us, Gorgias? What will we be able 苏格拉特：来吧，让我们看看我们到底在说什么修辞学。你看，我不得不告诉你，我无法下定决心去思考这个问题。当雅典举行公开会议选举医生、船工或其他专业人士时，会议的目的显然是为每个职位选择最有专长的人，所以在这种情况下，不会是修辞学家向他们提供建议吧？当需要修建防御工事、港口或船坞时，他们也不会使用修辞学家来提供建议：他们会使用建筑大师。同样，他们也不会用修辞学家来建议选谁担任军事指挥官，或在战斗中如何调兵遣将，或如何夺取敌方领土：在这些情况下，给他们提供建议的是军事专家，而不是修辞学家*。你对此有何看法，高尔吉亚？我的意思是，你是个修辞学家，你说，你也把别人训练成修辞学家，所以听听你对自己专业领域的看法会很好。你应该牢记我们目前的处境，并认识到我是以你们的利益为重的。很有可能，和我们一起住在这里的人也想成为你的学生.......是的，我可以看到一些候选人--事实上有很多。他们可能不好意思向你发问，所以当我提出问题时，你应该想象实际上是他们在问你，'参加你的课程对我们有什么好处，高尔吉亚？我们能
to advise Athens on? Only matters of right and wrong, or the subjects Socrates mentioned just now as well?’ What do you have to say in reply? 为雅典出谋划策？'只有是非问题，还是苏格拉底刚才提到的那些问题？你要怎么回答？
GORGIAS: All right, Socrates. I’ll do my best to demonstrate what rhetoric is capable of doing and leave nothing unclear. You cued me in perfectly yourself. I mean, I assume you’re aware that it was either Themistocles or Pericles, not the professionals, whose e advice led to those dockyards you mentioned, and to Athens’ fortifications and the construction of the harbours. 好吧，苏格拉底。我会尽我所能展示修辞的能力，不会有任何不清楚的地方。你的提示非常准确我是说，我想你应该知道，是特米斯托克勒斯或伯里克利，而不是专业人士，是他们的建议促成了你提到的那些船坞，促成了雅典的防御工事和港口建设。
SOCRATES: Yes, Gorgias. I only have it on hearsay about Themistocles, but I was there in person when Pericles advised us to build the Middle Wall.* 是的，高尔吉亚是的，高尔吉亚。关于特米斯托克勒斯，我只是道听途说，但当伯里克利建议我们修建中墙时，我就在现场*。
GORGIAS: And you can see, Socrates, that whenever 456a there’s a decision to be made about any of the matters you mentioned just now, it’s the rhetoricians whose suggestions are heard and whose opinions prevail. 高尔吉亚斯：苏格拉底，你可以看到，每当要对你刚才提到的任何一件事作出决定时，456a 都是修辞学家的建议被听取，他们的意见占上风。
SOCRATES: I find that incredible, Gorgias, and that’s why I’ve been asking you all this time what rhetoric is capable of. Faced with phenomena like the one you’ve mentioned, it comes across as something supernatural, with enormous power. 我觉得不可思议，高尔吉亚我觉得这很不可思议，高尔吉亚，这就是为什么我一直在问你修辞学到底有什么能力。面对你提到的这种现象，它就像超自然的东西，具有巨大的力量。
GORGIAS: You don’t know the half of it, Socrates! Almost every accomplishment falls within the scope of rhetoric. I’ve got good evidence of this. Often in the b past, when I’ve gone with my brother or some other doctor to one of their patients who was refusing to take his medicine or to let the doctor operate on him or cauterize him, the doctor proved incapable of persuading the patient to accept his treatment, but I succeeded, even though I didn’t have any other expertise to draw on except rhetoric. Think of a community–any community you like–and I assure you that if an expert in rhetoric and a doctor went there and had to compete against each other for election as that community’s doctor by addressing the Assembly or some other public meeting, the doctor would be left standing, and the effective speaker would win the c election, if that’s what he wanted. In fact, it doesn’t matter what his rival’s profession is: the rhetorician would persuade them to choose him, and the other person would fail. It’s inconceivable that a professional of any stamp could speak more persuasively in front of a crowd than a rhetorician on any topic at all. So you can see how effective rhetoric is, and the kinds of things it’s capable of doing. All the same, it should be used just as one would any other competitive skill. The fact that a person has trained as a 苏格拉底，你还不知道事情的一半！几乎所有的成就都属于修辞学的范畴。我有很好的证据。过去，我经常和我哥哥或其他医生一起去看一个病人，他拒绝吃药，拒绝让医生给他做手术或烧灼，事实证明，医生没有能力说服病人接受他的治疗，但我成功了，尽管除了修辞学，我没有任何其他专业知识可以利用。想想一个社区--任何你喜欢的社区--我向你保证，如果一个修辞专家和一个医生去那里，通过在议会或其他公共会议上发言来竞争当选该社区的医生，医生会被留下，而有效的演讲者会赢得选举，如果这是他想要的。事实上，对手的职业并不重要：修辞者会说服他们选择他，而其他人则会失败。难以想象的是，在任何话题上，任何职业的人都能在众人面前比修辞学家说得更有说服力。由此可见，修辞是多么有效，它能做的事情又有多少。同样，我们也应该像使用其他竞技技能一样使用修辞。一个人接受过
boxer or a pancratiast* or a soldier, and can con- dd sequently defeat friends and enemies alike, doesn’t mean he has to use this skill of his against everyone indiscriminately; it doesn’t give him a reason to go around 但这并不意味着他必须不分青红皂白地对每个人使用他的这一技能；这并不意味着他有理由到处乱跑
beating his friends up or stabbing them to death! Moreover, if someone goes to a gym, gets fit, and learns how to box, and then beats up his parents or some other friend or relation of his, this is certainly no reason for people to bear a grudge against trainers 殴打朋友或用刀刺死朋友！此外，如果有人去健身房健身，学习拳击，然后殴打他的父母或其他朋友或亲戚，这当然不是人们记恨教练的理由。
and people who teach others how to fight in armour, e 和教人如何穿盔甲作战的人，e
and ban them from their communities. A teacher passes his expertise on for his pupils to use when it is morally appropriate to do so–which is to say, defensively, not aggressively, and against people who wish them harm and do them wrong. It is the pupils 并禁止他们进入自己的社区。教师将自己的专业知识传授给学生，让他们在道义上适当的时候使用--也就是说，是防卫性的，而不是攻击性的，并且是针对那些想伤害他们和对他们不利的人。学生
who corrupt and abuse their strength and their skills. 457a 那些败坏和滥用他们的力量和技能的人。457a
This doesn’t mean that the teachers are bad, and it doesn’t mean that the expertise is at fault or is bad either; it only reflects on those who abuse it, surely. 这并不意味着教师不好，也不意味着专业知识有错或不好；这只能反映在滥用专业知识的人身上，当然。
The same goes for rhetoric. A rhetorician is capable of speaking effectively against all comers, whatever the issue, and can consequently be more persuasive in front of crowds about–to cut a long story short–anything he likes. Nevertheless, the fact b that he’s capable of getting people to think less highly of doctors and their fellow professionals doesn’t mean that he has to do so. Just like any competitive skill, rhetoric should be used when morally appropriate. If a person becomes good at rhetoric and then uses the power this expertise brings to do wrong, surely people shouldn’t bear a grudge against the teacher and ban him from their communities. He passed his 修辞也是如此。一个修辞学家能够有效地针对所有来访者发表言论，不管是什么问题，因此他在人群面前更有说服力--长话短说--任何他喜欢的事情。尽管如此，他有能力让人们降低对医生和其他专业人士的评价，但这并不意味着他必须这样做。就像任何竞技技能一样，在道德上适当的时候应该使用修辞。如果一个人善于辞令，然后利用这种专长带来的权力做错事，人们肯定不应该对这位老师怀恨在心，并禁止他进入社区。他通过了他的
expertise on for moral usage, and it’s this pupil of c his who’s using it for the opposite reasons. Hostility, banishment, and execution may be fair responses to abuse of rhetoric, but it’s unfair to treat the teacher like that. 他的学生却以相反的理由使用它。敌视、放逐和处决可能是对滥用修辞的公平回应，但这样对待老师是不公平的。
Before beginning to criticize what Gorgias has said about rhetoric, Socrates delivers a pointed warning against taking such arguments personally. 在开始批评高尔吉亚关于修辞学的言论之前，苏格拉底提出了一个尖锐的警告，告诫人们不要把这些论点当真。
SOCRATES: There’s a particular phenomenon that crops up during discussions, Gorgias, and you’ve experienced so many of them, like me, that I’m sure you’ve noticed it. People find it difficult to agree on exactly what it is they’re trying to talk about, and this makes it hard for them to learn from one another and so bring their conversations to a mutually satisfactory conclusion. What happens instead, when two people d are arguing about something, is that one person tells the other that he’s wrong or has expressed himself obscurely, and then they get angry and each thinks that his own point of view is being maliciously misinterpreted by the other person, and they start trying to win the argument rather than look into the issue they set out to discuss. Sometimes the argument finally breaks up in an appalling state, with people hurling abuse and saying the kinds of things to each other which can only make the bystanders cross at themselves for having thought these people worth 高尔吉亚高尔吉亚，在讨论中会出现一种特殊的现象，你和我一样经历过许多这样的讨论，我相信你已经注意到了。人们很难就他们想要谈论的话题达成一致，这就使他们很难相互学习，从而使他们的谈话达到双方都满意的结果。相反，当两个人在争论某件事情时，一个人告诉另一个人他错了或表达得不清楚，然后他们就会生气，每个人都认为自己的观点被另一个人恶意曲解了，他们开始试图赢得争论，而不是去研究他们想要讨论的问题。有时，争论最终会以一种令人震惊的方式破裂，人们互相谩骂，说着那些只会让旁观者感到愤怒的话语，因为他们认为这些人是值得尊敬的。
listening to. e 聆听。
You’re probably wondering why I’ve brought this up. It’s because I think that what you’re saying now about rhetoric is incompatible and inconsistent to a certain extent with what you originally said. So I’m worried about subjecting your views to a thorough examination, in case you assume that the target of my argumentativeness is you, when all I really want to do is clarify the facts of the matter. If you’re the 你可能想知道我为什么要提这个问题。因为我认为，你现在关于修辞学的说法与你原来的说法在某种程度上是不相容、不一致的。因此，我担心要对你的观点进行彻底的审视，以防你认为我争论的目标是你，而我真正想做的只是澄清事情的真相。如果你是
same kind of person as I am, I’d be glad to continue 458a 和我一样的人，我很乐意继续 458a
questioning you; otherwise, let’s forget it. What kind of person am I? I’m happy to have a mistaken idea of mine proved wrong, and I’m happy to prove someone else’s mistaken ideas wrong, I’m certainly not less happy if I’m proved wrong than if I’ve proved someone else wrong, because, as I see it, I’ve got the best of it: there’s nothing worse than the state which I’ve been saved from, so that’s better for me than saving someone else. You see, there’s nothing worse for a person, in my opinion, than holding mistaken views about the matters we’re discussing at the moment.* Anyway, if you tell me that you and I are b alike in this respect, then let’s carry on talking; but if you think we’d better forget it, then let’s do so and call a halt to the discussion right now. 质问你；否则，我们还是算了吧。我是什么样的人？我很高兴自己的错误观点被证明是错误的，我也很高兴证明别人的错误观点是错误的，如果我被证明是错误的，我当然不会比证明别人是错误的更不高兴，因为在我看来，我已经得到了最好的结果：没有什么比我被拯救出来的状态更糟糕的了，所以这对我来说比拯救别人更好。你看，在我看来，对一个人来说，最糟糕的事情莫过于对我们现在讨论的问题持有错误的看法*。不管怎么说，如果你告诉我，在这方面你和我是一样的，那我们就继续谈下去；但如果你认为我们最好忘了它，那我们就忘了它，现在就停止讨论。
GORGIAS: But I am like that, Socrates, I promise. Your description fits me perfectly. Still, perhaps we ought to think about the others here as well. 但我就是这样的人，苏格拉底，我保证。你对我的描述非常贴切不过，也许我们也应该想想这里的其他人。
Remember, I put on an extensive presentation for them, and that was quite a while ago–even before you and Chaerephon arrived. And now it’s conceivable that our discussion might go on for rather a long time, so we ought to consider them too, in case we’re keeping c some of them from doing something else they want to do. 记得吗，我为他们做了一场内容丰富的演讲，那已经是很久以前的事了--甚至在你和柴瑞丰到来之前。现在可以想象，我们的讨论可能会持续很长时间，所以我们也应该考虑一下他们，以防我们耽误了他们中的某些人做其他想做的事。
CHAEREPHON: You can hear from the noise people here are making, Gorgias and Socrates, that they want to hear whatever you have to say. As for me, I hope I’m never so busy that I have something to do which takes priority over a discussion as good and as well argued as this one, and makes me miss it. 凯雷丰：高尔吉亚和苏格拉底，你们可以从这里人们的喧哗声中听出，他们想听听你们说什么。至于我，我希望我永远不会忙到有事情要做，优先于像这样精彩、论据充分的讨论，让我错过它。
CALLICLES: I couldn’t agree more, Chaerephon. I should d think I’ve heard as many discussions in the past as you two, but I can’t remember when I’ve enjoyed one as much as yours. I’d be delighted even if you wanted to go on talking all day long. CALLICLES：我完全同意，Chaerephon。我想我过去听过的讨论和你们两个一样多，但我不记得我什么时候像你们一样享受过讨论。即使你们想说上一整天，我也会很高兴的。
SOCRATES: Well, that’s perfectly fine with me, Callicles, as long as Gorgias is happy. 只要高尔吉亚高兴只要高尔吉亚高兴，我完全没意见，凯里克勒斯。
GORGIAS: When all’s said and done, Socrates, it would be embarrassing for me to refuse, since I claimed to be able to answer any questions which were put to me. If that’s what they want, let’s talk. You can ask 高尔吉亚斯：说来说去，苏格拉底，如果我拒绝，那就太难堪了，因为我自称能够回答向我提出的任何问题。如果这就是他们想要的，那我们就谈谈吧。你可以问
me any questions you like. 您可以向我提出任何问题。
Gorgias is in effect claiming, Socrates points out, that a rhetorician is a mere amateur who happens to know how to be more persuasive than a professional in front of other amateurs. Gorgias boldly grasps the nettle and insists that it is precisely the strength of rhetoric that it is all one needs to be a match for any other professional. However, he continues to claim that a rhetorician is also an expert in morality, and that he himself can teach others to be moral experts. Socrates argues that a moral expert must behave morally, as well as know about morality, and if so, then this contradicts Gorgias’ earlier claim that rhetoricians can make immoral use of their expertise. 苏格拉底指出，高尔吉亚实际上是在说，修辞学家只是一个业余爱好者，碰巧知道如何在其他业余爱好者面前比专业人士更有说服力。高尔吉亚大胆地抓住了这一点，并坚持认为，修辞学的优势恰恰在于它足以与其他任何专业人士相媲美。然而，他继续声称，修辞学家也是道德专家，他自己可以教别人成为道德专家。苏格拉底认为，道德专家的行为必须合乎道德，也必须了解道德，如果是这样的话，那么这就与高尔吉亚先前的说法相矛盾，即修辞学家可以不道德地利用他们的专业知识。
SOCRATES: All right, Gorgias, I’ll tell you the problem I had with what you said. I mean, it’s quite possible that what you were saying was right and I simply misunderstood you. You claim to be able to train up as a rhetorician anyone who’s prepared to listen to your teaching on the subject. Yes? 好吧，高尔吉亚好吧，高尔吉亚，我来告诉你 我对你的话有什么疑问。我的意思是，很有可能你说的是对的，而我只是误解了你。你声称能把任何愿意听你讲课的人训练成修辞学家。是吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And you’ll teach him all he needs to know to persuade a crowd of people–not to make them understand the issues, but to win them over. Is that right? 苏格拉特你会教给他说服群众所需的一切知识--不是让他们理解问题，而是赢得他们的心。是这样吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 459a 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: Now, you claimed a while back that a rhetorician would be more persuasive than a doctor even when the issue was health. 索克拉特：修辞学家比医生更有说服力，即使是健康问题。
GORGIAS: Yes, I did, as long as he’s speaking in front of a crowd. 高尔基亚斯：是的，我是这么认为的，只要他在众人面前讲话。
SOCRATES: By ‘in front of a crowd’ you mean ‘in front of non-experts’, don’t you? I mean, a rhetorician wouldn’t be more persuasive than a doctor in front of an audience of experts, of course. 苏格拉底：你说的'在众人面前'是指'在非专家面前'吧？我是说，在专家听众面前，修辞学家当然不会比医生更有说服力。
GORGIAS: True. 戈尔吉亚斯：没错。
SOCRATES: Now, if he’s more persuasive than a doctor, he’s more persuasive than an expert, isn’t he? 如果他比医生更有说服力如果他比医生更有说服力，他就比专家更有说服力，不是吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: When he isn’t actually a doctor himself. Yes? b 苏格拉底：当他自己不是医生的时候是吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And a person who isn’t a doctor is ignorant, of course, about the things which a doctor knows. 苏格拉底：一个不是医生的人，当然对医生所知道的事情一无所知。
GORGIAS: Obviously. 很明显。
SOCRATES: So any case of a rhetorician being more persuasive than a doctor is a case of a non-expert being more persuasive than an expert in front of an audience of non-experts. Isn’t that what we have to conclude? 索克拉底斯所以，任何修辞学家比医生更有说服力的事例，都是非专家在非专家听众面前比专家更有说服力的事例。这难道不是我们必须得出的结论吗？
GORGIAS: Yes, in this instance, anyway. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的，不管怎么说，就这次而言。
SOCRATES: But isn’t a practitioner of rhetoric in the same situation whatever the area of expertise? He never has to know the actual facts of any issue; instead, he’s equipped himself with a persuasive ploy which c enables him to make non-experts believe that he knows more than experts.* 苏格拉底但修辞学家无论在哪个专业领域，不都是同样的处境吗？他从来不需要了解任何问题的实际情况；相反，他为自己配备了一种说服伎俩，使他能够让非专家相信他比专家知道得更多*。
GORGIAS: Doesn’t that simplify things, Socrates? Rhetoric is the only area of expertise you need to learn. You can ignore all the rest and still get the better of the professionals! 这不是把事情简单化了吗，苏格拉底？修辞是你唯一需要学习的专业知识。其他的你都可以忽略不计，而且还能胜过专业人士！
SOCRATES: Let’s leave the question of whether or not this means that a rhetorician does get the better of others, and took into it a little later, if it’s relevant to our discussion. For the time being, however, we’ve got a prior question to investigate: is the rhetorician’s situation actually the same with respect to right and wrong, morality and immorality, and good dd and bad, as it is with health and all the other provinces of particular areas of expertise? That is, despite lacking expert knowledge of good or bad, morality or immorality, or right or wrong, has he equipped himself with a persuasive ploy which enables him to make non-experts think that he’s more of an expert than an expert, even though he isn’t? Or does he have to be an expert? Is knowledge of these matters e actually a prerequisite for someone to come and learn rhetoric from you? If it isn’t, can you still (in your capacity as a teacher of rhetoric) give someone who comes to you the ability to make the general run of people think he’s an expert on morality when he isn’t, and think he’s a moral person when he isn’t? I mean, I know it’s not your job to bring anyone to understand any of these matters.* Or is it completely impossible for you to teach anyone rhetoric unless he already knows what is and is not the case in the sphere of morality? How do things stand here, 索克拉特斯我们暂且不谈这是否意味着修辞学家确实比别人更胜一筹，如果这与我们的讨论有关的话，我们稍后再讨论这个问题。不过，现在我们有一个先决问题要研究：在是与非、道德与不道德、好与坏的问题上，修辞学家的情况是否与健康和其他所有特定专业领域的情况一样？也就是说，尽管他对好与坏、道德与不道德、对与错缺乏专家知识，但他是否为自己配备了一种有说服力的伎俩，使他能够让非专家认为他比专家更专家，尽管他并不是专家？还是他必须是专家？对这些问题的了解是否是别人来向你学习修辞学的先决条件？如果不是，你还能不能（以你作为修辞学教师的身份）让来找你的人有能力让一般人认为他是道德专家，而实际上他不是；让一般人认为他是有道德的人，而实际上他不是？我的意思是，我知道你的工作并不是让任何人理解这些事情*，还是说，你完全不可能教任何人修辞学，除非他已经知道在道德领域什么是什么不是？现在情况如何？
Gorgias? And do please, I beg you, keep your recent 460a promise and demonstrate what rhetoric is capable of doing.* 高尔吉亚？我恳求你信守你最近 460a 的诺言，展示一下修辞的能力*。
GORGIAS: In my opinion, Socrates, he’ll also learn about morality from me, if he 高尔吉亚斯：在我看来，苏格拉底，他也会从我这里学到道德，如果他
really doesn’t already know.* 真的还不知道吗？
SOCRATES: Stop there! I’m glad to hear you say that. So if you’re to train someone as a rhetorician, he must either understand right and wrong beforehand, or gain this understanding at a later stage under your direction. 停下！别说了很高兴听你这么说。所以，如果你要把一个人培养成修辞学家，他必须事先明白对与错，或者在你的指导下在以后的阶段获得这种认识。
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: Now, isn’t a person who’s come to under- b stand building a builder? 苏格拉底：现在，一个来搞建筑的人不就是一个建筑者吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: While a person who’s come to understand music is a musician. Yes? 苏格拉底：而懂得音乐的人就是音乐家。是吗?
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: And a person who’s come to understand medicine is a doctor, and so on and so forth. By the same token, anyone who has come to understand a given subject is described in accordance with the particular character his branch of knowledge confers. Do you agree? 苏格拉底：懂医学的人就是医生，诸如此类。同样，一个人如果了解了某一学科，就会根据他的知识分支所赋予的特殊性来描述他。您同意吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: So doesn’t it follow that someone who has come to understand morality is moral? 苏格拉底：那么，理解了道德的人不就是有道德的吗？
GORGIAS: Definitely. No doubt about it.* 戈尔吉亚斯：当然。毫无疑问。
SOCRATES: A moral person behaves morally, of course. 苏格拉底：一个有道德的人当然会有道德的行为。
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: A rhetorician is bound to be moral, then, c 苏格拉底：那么，修辞学家就必须有道德，c
and a moral person is bound to want to behave morally. Agreed? 一个有道德的人必然希望自己的行为合乎道德。同意吗？
GORGIAS: I suppose so. 我想是的。
SOCRATES: So a rhetorician will never deliberately do wrong. 苏格拉底所以修辞学家绝不会故意做错事。
GORGIAS: Apparently not. 显然不是。
SOCRATES: Well, I’d like to remind you of something you said not long ago. You 索克拉特：好吧，我想提醒你不久前说过的话。你
said that communities dd shouldn’t hold trainers responsible and banish them for what a boxer does with his boxing–that is, for any wrongs he commits–and that by the same token it isn’t the teacher who should be blamed or banned if a rhetorician uses his rhetoric for immoral purposes, but the person who is actually using rhetoric wrongly and incorrectly. Isn’t that what you said? dd 说，社区不应该为拳击手的拳击行为--也就是说，为他所犯的任何错误--追究教练的责任并将其驱逐，同样道理，如果修辞学家将修辞学用于不道德的目的，应该指责或禁止的不是老师，而是真正错误和不正确地使用修辞学的人。这不正是你所说的吗？
GORGIAS: Yes, it is. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: But now it turns out that a rhetorician–the very person you were talking about–can never do e wrong. Is that right? 索克拉特但现在事实证明，一个修辞学家--你刚才说的那个人--永远不会做错事。是这样吗？
GORGIAS: I suppose so. 我想是的。
SOCRATES: In fact, Gorgias, you know when you said earlier that the province of rhetoric was the spoken word in the field of right and wrong, rather than things like numerical oddness and evenness? 索克拉特事实上，高尔吉亚，你知道你刚才说过，修辞学的领域是关于是非的口头语言，而不是数字的奇偶之类的东西吗？
GORGIAS: Yes. 戈尔吉亚斯：是的。
SOCRATES: Well, even then I took the implication of what you were saying to be that rhetoric could never be an immoral business, since morality is all it ever talks about. That was why I was astonished at the suggestion. you made a little later that a rhetorician might 索克拉底即使在那时，我也认为你的意思是，修辞学不可能是不道德的，因为修辞学只谈道德。这就是为什么我对你稍后提出的修辞学家可以
actually put his rhetoric to immoral use; I thought 416a 我认为 416a
you were being 'inconsistent and so I said what I said about how our discussion would be worth while if you were like me and saw the profit in being proved wrong, but that otherwise we should just forget it. And now we’ve reached a point in our enquiry where you can see for yourself that we’ve come to the opposite conclusion-that a rhetorician is incapable of putting his rhetoric to immoral use and of deliberately doing wrong. I tell you, Gorgias, it’s going to take quite a lot of discussion to sort out the truth of these matters to our satisfaction. b 你是'前后矛盾'，所以我说了我所说的，如果你和我一样，认为被证明是错的是有好处的，我们的讨论就会有意义，否则我们就应该忘掉它。而现在，我们的讨论已经到了这样一个地步，你可以亲眼看到我们得出了相反的结论--一个修辞学家不可能把他的修辞学用于不道德的用途，也不可能故意做错事。高尔吉亚，我告诉你，要想把这些问题的真相弄清楚，我们还需要进行大量的讨论。
Gorgias’ pupil Polus now takes over the discussion with Socrates. He complains that Socrates has exploited Gorgias’ sense of propriety in order to win the argument and asks Socrates what he himself thinks rhetoric is. Socrates says that it is a kind of empirical knack, like cookery, and doesn’t require technical expertise as such. Moreover, both rhetoric and cookery are aspects of ‘flattery’-which is to say that they aim solely to give pleasure, rather than any genuine benefit. All branches of flattery are counterfeit imitations of true branches of knowledge. Four branches of flattery are schematically compared with their nonspurious counterparts. 高尔吉亚的学生波吕斯现在接过了与苏格拉底的讨论。他抱怨苏格拉底为了赢得争论，利用了高尔吉亚的礼节意识，并问苏格拉底他自己认为修辞学是什么。苏格拉底说，修辞是一种经验技巧，就像烹饪一样，并不需要专业技术。此外，修辞和烹饪都是 "谄媚 "的一种，也就是说，它们的目的只是为了取悦于人，而不是为了真正的利益。所有谄媚的分支都是对真正知识分支的假冒模仿。现将四种 "谄媚 "与非 "谄媚 "进行示意性比较。
POLUS: Come off it, Socrates. Do you actually believe what you’ve been saying about rhetoric? Do you think . . . just because Gorgias was too embarrassed not to accept the idea you introduced (that a rhetorical expert knows what is right, moral, and good, and that if a pupil didn’t have this knowledge when he came to him, he’d teach him), and just because-as a result of this concession, I suppose*-there then turned out to be a degree of inconsistency in what he was saying, which is a situation you relish, when it c was you yourself who had steered him towards these questions . . I mean, do you expect anyone to deny that he knows what’s right and can explain it to other people? It’s really rude of you to steer the discussion in that direction. 得了吧，苏格拉底。你真的相信你所说的修辞学吗？你认为......仅仅因为高尔吉亚不好意思不接受你提出的观点（即修辞专家知道什么是正确的、道德的和好的，如果学生来找他时不具备这些知识，他会教他的），仅仅因为--我想*--由于这一让步的结果，他所说的话出现了一定程度的前后不一致，而这正是你所乐于见到的情况，因为正是你自己引导他提出这些问题的......。.我的意思是，你以为有人会否认他知道什么是正确的，并能向其他人解释吗？你把讨论引向这个方向实在是太无礼了。
SOCRATES: My dear Polus, that’s exactly why we’ve got friends and children, so that when we grow old and tottery, you younger ones are there to set our lives straight and correct any mistakes we make in our behaviour and our words. At the moment, you’re the one who’s here: if Gorgias and I have slipped up in d anything we’ve said, it’s your duty to set us straight. I’ll gladly take back anything you like–any of our conclusions which strikes you as wrong–just so long as you comply with one condition. 亲爱的波鲁斯我亲爱的波吕斯，这正是我们交朋友和生儿育女的原因，这样当我们年老色衰时，你们这些年轻的朋友就会在我们身边为我们指点迷津，纠正我们言行中的任何错误。此时此刻，你就在这里：如果我和高尔吉亚说错了什么话，你有责任纠正我们。我很乐意收回你喜欢的任何东西--我们的任何让你觉得错误的结论--只要你遵守一个条件。
POLUS: What’s that? 那是什么？
SOCRATES: At the beginning of this discussion,* you showed signs of wanting to express yourself in a long-winded fashion. Please could you restrain yourself on that score. 索克拉底在讨论之初*，你就表现出想长篇大论地表达自己的观点。请你在这方面克制一下。
POLUS: What? Won’t you let me speak at any length I choose? 什么？你就不能让我随便长篇大论吗？