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Welcome, everybody. Thank you for coming through the rain on
欢迎各位。感谢大家冒雨前来参加

this evening. I am so delighted with our guest who's gonna be
今晚我很高兴我们的嘉宾将是

talking to us tonight. And last week or a couple of weeks ago,
今晚和我们谈话。还有上周或几周前、

we had Nick Cave, the rockstar here. We had a really
我们请来了摇滚巨星尼克-凯夫。我们有一个非常

interesting and surprising evening. Tomorrow we have a
有趣而令人惊喜的夜晚。明天我们有一个

comedy night. So we are really catering to all tastes yeah at
喜剧之夜。因此,我们真的是在迎合各种口味,是的,在

the UnHerd Club UnHerd 俱乐部

How come you picked the boring evening to come?
你怎么选了这么无聊的晚上来?

That, it definitely will not be. Dr. Ian McGilchrist is someone
那肯定不会。伊恩-麦吉尔克里斯特博士是一位

we have been trying to persuade to leave his beautiful home in
我们一直在努力劝说他离开他在纽约的美丽家园。

Skye and come to the metropolis to talk to us and we finally
斯凯来到大都市与我们交谈,我们终于

succeeded. He is, as many of you will know, a neuroscientist,
成功了。你们很多人都知道,他是一位神经科学家、

turned philosopher. Can I call you that?
变身哲学家我能这么称呼你吗?

You can call me what you like.
随你怎么叫我

An extraordinary breadth of interests. He studied literature
他兴趣广泛。他研究文学

at Oxford, where he began his academic career. He's a fellow
他在牛津大学开始了自己的学术生涯。他是

of All Souls and he's written a series of extraordinary books.
他写了一系列非凡的书。

He kind of rose to stardom with a book called 'The Master and
他因一本名为《大师与......》的书而一举成名。

his Emissary', which set out his central thesis, which is what
他的使者",其中阐述了他的中心论点,也就是

we'll be talking about tonight, and has followed up with a very
我们今晚要讨论的,并在随后发表了一篇非常

substantial and very profound two volume book called 'The
这两卷书的内容充实而深刻,书名分别为 "The

Matter With Things', which I very strongly recommend. It's
Matter With Things》,我强烈推荐这本书。它是

absolutely worth the effort, and that's really what we're going
绝对值得付出努力,而这正是我们要

to talk about today. If any of you have copies, I'm sure Ian
今天要谈的话题。如果你们谁有副本,我相信伊恩

would be happy to sign them afterwards. let's begin in it's
之后,我很乐意在它们上签名。

okay. With what I'm sure you have been asked many times,
好的。我相信你已经被问过很多次了、

which is to sort of start with the basic assumption for us,
这是我们的基本假设、

many people here will will no more than that. but for those of
但对于那些

them who don't tell us about the two hemispheres of the brain,
他们不告诉我们大脑两半球的情况、

and how they each have a different perception of the
以及他们各自对

world. 世界

Yes, this is a difficult topic, because people either know
是的,这是一个困难的话题,因为人们要么知道

something that is entirely wrong, or know that the whole
完全错误的东西,或者知道整个

subject is wrong. And so it's very difficult to get people to
主题是错误的。因此,很难让人们

listen. Or it was initially but I'm very glad to say that I
听。或者说最初是这样,但我很高兴地说,我

carried the day with a lot of people. Many of you, if you
很多人都是这样度过这一天的。你们中的许多人,如果你们

don't know my work will think, if you know anything about
不知道我的工作会怎么想,如果你知道关于

hemisphere difference, that the left hemisphere is rather,
半球的差异,即左半球的差异、

rather boring, but reliable. It's like a decent accountant.
相当无聊,但很可靠。它就像一个体面的会计师。

It keeps good records, but it's not actually great company. And
它记录良好,但实际上并不是一家伟大的公司。而且

the right hemisphere is this flighty thing that is given to
右脑半球是一个 "飞 "的东西,它被赋予了

fits of passion and painting. And this is not a good way to
适合激情和绘画。而这并不是

think about it at all. There were some conclusions drawn from
根本没有想过。从以下方面得出了一些结论

some early procedures in which the brain was split. There's a
在早期的一些手术中,大脑被分割开来。有一个

band of fibres at the base of the brain that joins these two
大脑底部的纤维带连接着这两条

hemispheres, a bit like a walnut, called the corpus
半球,有点像核桃,被称为 "冠状体"。

callosum. And for certain people who had intractable epilepsy, a
胼胝体。而对于某些患有顽固性癫痫的人来说,一种

curable condition, it became when they were able to divide
当他们能够分裂出

the two hemispheres one from another. So that if there was an
两个半球一一对应。因此,如果有一个

electrical storm, if you'd like to think of it that way, in one
电风暴,如果你愿意这么想的话,在一个

hemisphere, it didn't spread to the other. So the person was
半球,并没有扩散到另一个半球。所以这个人是

able to remain conscious and carry on functioning. And after
能够保持清醒并继续工作。而在

that, there were a lot of rather interesting experiments that
因此,有许多相当有趣的实验

could be done. You could address things purely to one hemisphere
可以这样做。你可以纯粹针对一个半球开展工作

or to the other. And on the back of that the sort of myths that I
或其他。在此基础上,我

mentioned, grew up. And between the 70s and the 90s, people
所提到的,长大了。从 70 年代到 90 年代,人们

experimented more and more, and they found it in fact, all these
实验越来越多,他们发现,事实上,所有这些

cliches were completely wrong. And so they gave the whole thing
这些陈词滥调是完全错误的。因此,他们把整个事情

up as a bad job but I'd like to suggest that that was dogmatic
但我想说的是,那是教条主义在作怪。

and premature. First of all, the brain consists only in making
而且为时过早。首先,大脑只包括制造

connections. It's lots and lots and lots, billions of neurons,
连接。它有很多很多,数十亿个神经元、

nerve cells that connect and its power consists in the
连接神经细胞,其力量在于

connections. So, why would nature have endowed us with a
联系。那么,为什么大自然会赋予我们一个

brain that has a whopping divide down the middle with just a
大脑中间有一个巨大的鸿沟,只有一个

small connection between the two? That's the first thing. The
两者之间有什么联系?这是第一点。这就是第一件事。

second is that the brain is asymmetrical. Why would it be
二是大脑不对称。为什么会

asymmetrical? The skull is not asymmetrical, the world around
不对称?头骨不对称,周围的世界才不对称。

us doesn't divide neatly into a left world and a right world, so
我们的世界并不完全分为左派世界和右派世界,因此

why would the brain? And the third, which was something I
为什么大脑会这样?第三点,是我

discovered in medical school, was that this corpus callosum,
他在医学院发现了胼胝体、

this connecting band spent at least half its time, if not
这个连接乐队至少花了一半的时间,如果不是

more, sending messages to the other hemisphere, 'you keep out
更多,向另一个半球发送信息,'你不要去

of this, I'm dealing with it.' So it wasn't so much necessarily
我正在处理它'。所以并不是一定要

facilitating as inhibiting. And just as an aside, primates have
促进作用和抑制作用一样。另外,灵长类动物有

more inhibitory neurons than any other mammal, and humans have
抑制性神经元的数量比其他哺乳动物都多,而人类拥有

more inhibitory neurons than any primate. In fact, about 19% of
抑制性神经元比任何灵长类动物都多。事实上,大约 19% 的

the human brain consists in inhibitory neurons, which would
人脑由抑制性神经元组成,这些神经元会

take us somewhere that we may or may not go, which is the
把我们带到一个我们可能去也可能不去的地方,这就是

important part that resistance, negation plays in creation.
抵制、否定在创造中的重要作用。

Anyway, there we are. So that's the first problem. And then I
总之,我们到了。这就是第一个问题。然后我

started to look at the literature and I was fortunate
我开始查阅文献,我很幸运

enough to come across a colleague who had been working
有幸遇到一位同事,他一直在

in that area for 20 years, John Cutting and effectively what he
在这一领域工作了 20 年的约翰-切削,他有效地

had found is that there were significant differences, but
我们发现存在重大差异,但

they didn't follow the map, you know, reason and language,
他们没有按图索骥,你知道,理性和语言、

emotion and pictures, for example, because it's quite true
例如,情感和图片,因为这是非常真实的

that both are involved in both. But now, each of them are
两人都参与其中。但现在,他们各自

involved in all those things, in everything that they do in a
参与所有这些事情,参与他们在一个

different way. So it was not about the what, but about the
不同的方式。因此,问题不在于 "什么",而在于 "什么"。

how, you see what I mean? And that actually turns out to be
你明白我的意思吗?这实际上就是

very, very important. They each contribute to reason and
非常非常重要。它们各自对理性和

language and emotion and so on and the left hemisphere is not
语言和情感等,而左半球并不是

you know, unbiased and unemotional, it's actually prone
你知道,不偏不倚,不带感情色彩,实际上很容易

to anger and aggression. It's very far from being calm. It
愤怒和攻击性。这与平静相去甚远。它

also tends to jump to conclusions more than the right
也比右派更容易妄下结论

hemisphere, which Ramachandran, the great neuroscientists called
半球,伟大的神经科学家拉马钱德兰称之为

the devil's advocate. Anyway, what my researches over 30 years
魔鬼代言人。总之,我 30 多年来的研究结果是

and my collaboration with John Cutting in the initial phases of
以及我与约翰-卡廷在该项目最初阶段的合作

that, reveal is that these two manners of being in the world
这两种存在于世界中的方式

that these hemispheres bring out are to do with the way in which
这些半球所带来的影响与以下方式有关

we attend. Now, that may not sound very exciting. In fact,
我们参加。现在,这听起来可能不太令人兴奋。事实上

when I first realised that the basic thing here was attention,
当我第一次意识到这里的基本要素是注意力的时候、

the penny didn't immediately drop. Attention? It could be
我并没有马上意识到这一点。注意?可能是

memory, it could be calculation, it could be anything. What's
记忆,可能是计算,可能是任何东西。什么是

special about attention? Well, the answer is that attention is
注意力有什么特别之处?答案是,注意力是

actually how our world comes into being. We can only know the
事实上,我们的世界是如何产生的。我们只能知道

world we experience and how we experience that world depends
我们经历的世界以及我们如何经历这个世界取决于

fundamentally on the type of attention. So if you attend to
基本取决于关注的类型。因此,如果您关注

something in one way, you see one thing. If you attend to it
如果你用一种方式去看一件事,你就会看到一件事。如果你关注它

in another, you'll see something quite different. And they
在另一个地方,你会看到完全不同的东西。他们

sometimes talk about a mountain behind my house. I live in a
有时会说起我家后面的一座山。我住在

place called Talisker on Skye, which is not actually where the
斯凯岛上一个叫塔利斯克的地方,实际上并不是

whiskey is made. It's nearby. They tried to keep it out of my It's four miles away, but it's called that because it's from a
酿造威士忌。就在附近他们试图把它挡在我的酒窖之外。 它在四英里之外,但之所以叫这个名字,是因为它来自一个

reach 达到

Norse word 'talasgar', which means the sloping rock. Now what
北欧词 "talasgar",意为倾斜的岩石。现在

that tells you is this mountain, which is a very extraordinary
它告诉你的是这座山,这是一座非常奇特的山。

mountain, it has this sloping silhouette from the sea. So what
从海面上看,山的轮廓是倾斜的。那么

one knows is to the Vikings 1000 years ago, what that mountain
人们知道,对于 1000 年前的维京人来说,那座山

meant was safety or danger, because it alerted them to the
这意味着安全或危险,因为它提醒他们

fact that they were in a very treacherous piece of water
事实上,他们身处的水域非常危险

there, and the bay was full of rocks. But we also know there
海湾里到处都是岩石。但我们也知道

were Picts living there 1000 years earlier than that, and
皮克特人早在 1000 年前就生活在那里,而且

they have their brochs, the ruins of their brochs, they're
他们有自己的小木屋,小木屋的废墟,他们

still there. And to them, this mountain offered both shelter
仍在那里。对他们来说,这座山既是庇护所

and was the home of the gods. Then in the 18th century, people
是众神的家园。到了 18 世纪,人们

started visiting Scotland to draw it and see the beauty in
我开始访问苏格兰,画它,看它的美。

the sublime landscape. And so for them, this mountain was a
崇高的景观。因此,对他们来说,这座山是

many coloured, many textured form of great beauty. And in the
多色彩、多纹理的造型美轮美奂。在

19th century, people got much more interested in geology for
19 世纪,人们对地质学更加感兴趣,因为

the first time. And it happens to be an extraordinarily good
第一次。而这恰好是一部非常出色的

example of columnar basalt formation, the same as... It is
柱状玄武岩形成的例子,与...它是

in fact, in line with the Giants Causeway in Ireland. And so it's
事实上,它与爱尔兰的巨人堤道遥相呼应。因此

part of the same formation. To somebody who wanted to mine
是同一岩层的一部分。给想采矿的人

basalt, this mountain means money, money, dollars. To a
玄武岩,这座山意味着钱、钱、美元。对一个

physicist, what it is, is 99.99%, nothing and then the
物理学家,它是什么,是 99.99%,什么都不是,然后是

other point 0.001%, we don't really know what's going on.
其他 0.001%,我们真的不知道发生了什么。

Now, which of these is the real mountain? Which of those is the
现在,哪一座才是真正的山?哪座是

real mountain? They're all real mountains. They just depend on
真山?它们都是真正的山。它们只是取决于

the way in which and the goals with which we approach it.
我们处理问题的方式和目标。

Everybody sees what they are interested in finding and way
每个人都能找到自己感兴趣的内容和方式

they attend makes all the difference. So basically,
因此,从根本上说,他们参加活动的时间和地点是完全不同的。所以基本上

attention helps shape the world and these two kinds of attention
注意力有助于塑造世界,而这两种注意力

came about for an evolutionarily important reason. And I should
是出于一个重要的进化原因。我应该

say that it's not just the human brain that is asymmetrical. All
说不对称的不仅仅是人类的大脑。所有

the brains of all the creatures, we've looked at, birds,
我们研究过的所有生物的大脑,包括鸟类、

reptiles, amphibians, insects, they all have ganglia or brains
爬行动物、两栖动物、昆虫都有神经节或大脑

that are distinct left and right and asymmetrical. And even the
左右分明、不对称。甚至

oldest extant organism nematostella vectensis, 700
最古老的线虫,700

million years old, off the Isle of Wight, where it blends in
百万年前的怀特岛附近,在那里它融合了

very well with the average age of the community, it has a an
与社区的平均年龄非常吻合,它有一个

asymmetrical neural network. And it's been described as the
不对称神经网络它被描述为

origin of the mammalian brain. So there's something there that
哺乳动物大脑的起源因此,有一些东西

seems to involve all living things that requires this
似乎所有生物都需要这种

asymmetry. What was it? It's that every creature has to solve
不对称。是什么呢?每个生物都必须解决

this conundrum, how can I eat and yet stay alive? That doesn't
这个难题是:我怎样才能既能吃饱又能活下去?这不

sound difficult you but if you think back for most of history,
听起来很困难,但如果你回想一下历史上的大部分时期、

a creature has to be able to target something and follow it
生物必须能够锁定目标并跟踪它

with its eyes and get it very accurately. And to do that it
用它的眼睛,非常准确地获取信息。为此,它

has to have a very narrow attention, because that's the
必须有非常狭窄的注意力,因为这就是

only attention is paying, it won't last very long, because he
只注意自己的行为,这种情况不会持续太久,因为他

won't see the predator overhead, it won't see its mate and its
它看不到头顶上的捕食者,也看不到它的配偶和它的

offspring that also need feeding. So there needs to be
后代也需要喂养。因此需要

two kinds of attention and so different are these kinds of
这两种关注是如此不同

attention that they can only come about by having two centres
注意到只有通过两个中心才能实现这些目标

of awareness. And the left hemisphere has this very narrow
的意识。而左半球有这种非常狭窄的

beam, perhaps three degrees out of the 360, targeted on a
光束,可能偏离 360 度 3 度,目标是一个

detail, it can see very precisely. It fixes it and it
细节,它可以看得非常精确。它能固定它,它

grabs it and the left hemisphere controls the right hand with
抓住它,而左半球则控制右手,用

which most of us do the grabbing and the getting. Whereas the
我们中的大多数人都是这样做的。而

right hemisphere has this broad, open, sustained vigilant
右半球具有这种宽广、开放、持续的警觉性

attention, which is on the lookout for everything else
关注其他一切

without preconception. So on the one hand, you've got an
没有先入之见。因此,一方面,你有一个

attention that produces a world of tiny fragments that don't
注意力,产生一个由微小碎片组成的世界,而这些碎片并不

seem connected to one another, a bit here a bit there, a bit
似乎彼此相连,这里一点,那里一点,还有一点

elsewhere, that are decontextualized, that are
在其他地方,它们是去语境化的,是

disembodied, abstract, become examples of a category of
非实体的、抽象的,成为一类

things, and are fixed by the stare of the left hemisphere. So
它们被左半球的凝视所固定。所以

you've got these static, fixed, known familiar bits and pieces,
你已经有了这些静态的、固定的、已知的、熟悉的点点滴滴、

'oh, it's one of those, that's what I eat,' and so on. Whereas,
哦,这是其中之一,我就吃这个 "等等。而这是不对的、

with the right hemisphere, we see that nothing really is
通过右半球,我们会发现没有什么是真正的

completely separated from everything else, or indeed, from
与其他一切完全分离,或者说

anything else, ultimately, that all is that some level of
其他任何事情,归根结底,都是某种程度上的

seamlessly interconnected, that it's flowing and changing rather
无缝连接,它在流动和变化,而不是

than fixed and static. That everything is what it is because
而不是固定不变的。一切之所以如此,是因为

of the context it finds itself in. That embodiment is essential
它所处的环境。这种体现至关重要

to the nature of what we're looking at, both our looking and
我们所观察的事物的性质,包括我们的观察和

the thing we're looking at. There are unique individuals
我们正在研究的问题。有独特的个体

that it's not just person, but it's Sue or Fred, or whatever it
不是一个人,而是苏或弗雷德,或其他什么人

is. Those distinctions, the uniqueness is something the
是的。这些区别、独特性是

right hemisphere sees, but the left hemisphere sees just an
右半球看到的,但左半球看到的只是一个

example of something that uses needs. The left hemisphere as
这就是利用需求的例子。左半球作为

well is thus lifeless, literally inanimate kind of a world and
因此,"井 "是没有生命的,简直就是一个没有生命的世界。

the right hemisphere is an animate one. And you can in
右半球是一个有生命的半球。你可以在

fact, now temporarily disable one hemisphere at a time in an
事实上,现在在"...... "模式中,每次暂时禁用一个半球。

experimental subject, completely painlessly. And when you do
实验课题,完全没有痛苦。当你做

that, you find that the left hemisphere sees things that are
你会发现左半球看到的东西是

animate as mechanisms. When you have the right hemisphere alone
作为机制的动画。当你只有右半球时

functioning, it sees things that you would normally think of as
功能,它能看到你通常认为是

inanimate, as alive. So the sun is alive, it's moving across the
无生命的,也是有生命的。因此,太阳是有生命的,它在地球上移动。

heavens, it's giving warmth. So these are very, very
天哪,它给人温暖。因此,这些都是非常非常

fundamentally different ways of looking at things and the last
从根本上说,看待事物的方式是不同的,而最后的

thing I'm going to say is that- and again, this may not strike
我想说的是--再说一遍,这可能不会让人觉得

you as so fundamental, but believe me, it is- the right
但相信我,它确实是--权利

hemisphere sees things as they come into being for us. I use
半球看到的是事物在我们面前的样子。我使用

the term 'presence' they 'presence' to us, which is a
对我们来说,"存在 "是一个

term philosophers use translating, Heidegger's
哲学家使用的翻译术语,海德格尔的

Unreason and what he was getting at was that things are not just
他想说的是,事情不仅仅是

given, stati, there but they come about for us as we look at
但是,当我们看

them and pay attention to them. And we see more what they are,
并关注它们。我们就能更清楚地看到它们的本质、

they become what they are for us. And that's not to say that
对我们来说,它们就是它们。这并不是说

it's all made up by our mind. It's not as simple as that nor
这一切都是由我们的思想造成的。事情并非如此简单,也并非如此

is it that there's just a world out there and it's completely
是不是外面的世界就是这样,完全是

passive. There is an interrelationship between our
被动。我们的

minds and the world. It is all the time constructing it. The
思想和世界。它无时无刻不在构建世界。它

right hemisphere is aware of this and is part of it. The left
右半球意识到了这一点,并且是它的一部分。左半球

hemisphere sees representations which literally means 'present
半球看到的表象,字面意思是 "现在

again', after it's no longer present. The right hemisphere as
再次",在它不再存在之后。右半球作为

well, is the world in which we live, the left hemisphere's
是我们生活的世界,是左半球的

world is, if you like, a map, a schema, a diagram, a theory,
如果你愿意,世界就是一张地图、一个图式、一个图解、一种理论、

something two dimensional. And it's got none of the richness
二维的东西。它没有丰富的

that's in the right hemisphere as well. There's nothing wrong
也在右半球。没有错

with that, because actually a map is very useful. And the map
因为实际上地图非常有用。地图

doesn't get more useful by including more and more detail
并不会因为包含越来越多的细节而变得更有用

about the names of the people who live in the houses and the
关于住在这些房子里的人的名字和

plants they grow in the garden. No, a map to be useful has to be
他们在花园里种植的植物。不,地图要想有用,就必须

selective. And that's how it is. So we've got this one world,
有选择性事情就是这样。所以我们有了这个世界

which is composed of things that are mechanical, useful,
由机械、有用的东西组成、

inanimate, reducible to their parts, abstracted,
无生命的,可还原为其部分的,抽象的、

decontextualized, dead, and another world, which is flowing,
它是一个去背景化的、死寂的世界,也是另一个流动的世界、

complex, living, changing and has all the qualities that make
复杂、有生命力、不断变化,并具有所有这些特质。

life worth living for us.
让我们的生活更有意义

That's a wonderful explanation. Let me let me ask you now to do
这是一个很好的解释。现在请大家

another 300 pages in three minutes. These two modes of
三分钟内再读 300 页。这两种

attending have with them, accompanying philosophies,
与他们一起出席会议的,还有他们的理念、

accompanying ways of seeing the world.
看世界的方式。

yes. 是的

And your thesis seems to be that not just as individuals, but as
你的论点似乎是,不仅作为个人,而且作为

a whole society, and recently- I'm keen to know how long you
整个社会,最近--我很想知道你有多长时间

think that's been true for- have become overly dependent on the
我认为这已经成为事实,因为我们已经过度依赖于

left hemisphere or giving the left hemisphere too much
或给予左半球过多的

attention, too much power in shaping the world, as we
关注,在塑造世界方面拥有过多的权力,因为我们

understand it, and has neglected this wiser hemisphere that, as
而忽视了这一更睿智的半球。

the 'Master in his Emissary', that book I mentioned, hints at
我提到的那本书《使者中的大师》暗示了

should actually be in charge, using the left hemisphere. So
实际上应该由左半球来负责。所以

tell us how this has happened, as wide as a society? How can it
告诉我们,作为一个广泛的社会,这是如何发生的?如何

be that we start using one more than the other?
是我们开始更多地使用一种还是另一种?

Yes, I mean, the title of 'The Master's Emissary' refers to the
是的,我是说,"大师的使者 "这个标题指的是

idea of a much wiser master who has a servant who thinks he
一个更聪明的主人有一个自以为是的仆人的想法

knows everything but because he doesn't really know very much,
知道一切,而是因为他知道的其实并不多、

he thinks he's got it all. But the wiser master knows he needs
他自以为无所不能。但聪明的主人知道,他需要

a lot of work to be done, administrative work by the
需要做大量的工作,包括由

emissary. So you're quite right, the right hemisphere... Things
使者你说得没错,右半球...事情

work well, there's vast amounts of evidence of this, as long as
有大量证据表明,只要

the left hemisphere is carrying out work it's disputed to do by
左半球正在进行的工作是有争议的,因为

the right hemisphere. Rather like we use a computer. The
右半球。就像我们使用电脑一样。右脑

computer doesn't really understand the data we draw from
计算机并不真正了解我们从中提取的数据

the complexity of life. That's not its job, its job is to
生命的复杂性。这不是它的工作,它的工作是

process it very fast, and hand us back some data which we then
快速处理,并将一些数据交还给我们。

take back into the world and make sense of. What seems to
将其带回这个世界,并使其具有意义。似乎

happen in civilizations and in the second half of 'The Master
在《大师》的后半部分

and his Emissary', I trace Western history from the
和他的使者 "中,我追溯了西方历史,从

Greeks, through the Romans, to the Renaissance, the
希腊人、罗马人、文艺复兴时期的

Reformation, the Enlightenment, Romanticism, Industrial
宗教改革、启蒙运动、浪漫主义和工业革命

Revolution, Modernism and Post Modernism. And what I think I
革命、现代主义和后现代主义我认为我

can share is that in two previous cases, the Greek and
可以分享的是,在前两个案例中,希腊和

the Roman civilization began with a sudden outburst of
罗马文明的开端是突然爆发的

flourishing in which the two worked very well together. And
在这个过程中,两者合作得非常愉快。而且

then over time, it got more and more towards the left
然后,随着时间的推移,它越来越偏左

hemisphere's point of view. Apparently, I think this is
半球的观点。显然,我认为这是

because civilizations tend to overreach themselves. They tend
因为文明往往会超越自我。它们往往

to amass an empire, and then everything has to be
积累一个帝国,然后一切都要

administered. And there are rules and procedures, and
管理。有规则和程序,而且

everything is rolled out under a bureaucracy. And what this
一切都在官僚体制下展开。而这

privilege is, is a simple, sequential, analytic way of
特权是一种简单的、有序的、分析性的方法。

understanding rather than the more complex, holistic
而不是更复杂、更全面的

understanding that is required, and is provided by the right
所需的理解,并通过正确的

hemisphere. So to come to where we are now... What I think
半球。那么,我们现在所处的位置......我的想法

happened was the Renaissance was this sudden flowering in which-
文艺复兴是一朵突然绽放的花朵。

and it's not about the humanities versus the sciences.
这不是人文科学与科学的问题。

Neither by the way, is it true that the humanities are somehow
顺便说一句,人文学科是否真的在某种程度上

right hemisphere and sciences somehow left hemisphere. Good
右半球和科学在某种程度上是左半球。很好

science, good reasoning involves the right hemisphere as much as
在科学领域,良好的推理能力既需要右半球的参与,也需要左半球的参与。

the left but what happened was, there were great steps forward
但结果却是,左翼势力向前迈出了一大步

in so many aspects of life, a great richness, and then towards
在生活的许多方面都非常丰富,然后朝着

the end of the 17th century, becoming much stronger in the
在 17 世纪末,该地区变得更加强大。

18th century was a sense that science had solved all the
18 世纪的人们认为,科学已经解决了所有问题。

problems and we were beginning to understand how to control
问题,我们开始了解如何控制

everything ourselves. Unfortunately, the kind of
自己的一切。不幸的是,这种

thinking that gets drawn into that is also rather simple
这种想法也很简单

minded, and it therefore doesn't see what it is it doesn't see.
因此,它看不到自己看不到的东西。

And I think that's where we've got you is that we've trusted a
我认为这就是我们让你信任的地方。

way of systematising, rationalising, and we believe If
系统化、合理化的方式,我们相信 如果

the if we just had a little bit more power, which is the raison
如果我们有更多的权力,这也是为什么

d'etre of the left hemisphere, to grasp, to ge. If only we
左半球的主要功能是掌握和控制。只要我们

could do a bit more manipulation, we would solve
如果能再多做一些操作,我们就能解决

everything. But at the same time, we're making an unholy
一切。但与此同时,我们却在制造一个邪恶的

mess of the world in so many respects. We're destroying
世界在很多方面都一团糟。我们正在摧毁

nature, we're destroying humanity, really. We're just
自然,我们正在毁灭人类,真的。我们只是

certainly destroying this civilization. I'd say we're
肯定会摧毁这个文明。我要说我们

taking a sledgehammer to it. And so this is a very sad outcome
用大锤子敲它。因此,这是一个非常可悲的结果

for this know-it-all left hemisphere. One of the reasons I
的左半球。我

think it's become- well, there're several reasons why I
我认为它变得--嗯,有几个原因让我

think it's become more potent. One is that of course, it's the
认为它变得更加有力。其中一个原因是

one that makes you rich. It's the one with which you do the
能让你致富的那个。它是你实现

grabbing and getting and that's easy and straightforward.
抓取和获取,简单明了。

Another is that it's much easier to explain the left hemisphere's
另一个原因是,要解释左半球的

point of view. It's money for old rope, say, 'well, look, if
观点。这是老绳子的钱,说,'好吧,听着,如果

we do this, it least it leads to that.' Whereas actually, what
我们这样做,至少会导致那样的结果'。而实际上

the right hemisphere is seeing is a complex system, which is
右半球看到的是一个复杂的系统,这是

different from a complicated system. A jet engine is a
不同于复杂的系统。喷气发动机是一个

complicated system, but it's not complex. It's not. A complex
复杂的系统,但它并不复杂。它并不复杂。复杂的

system is one which is inherently unpredictable. It's
这个系统本质上是不可预测的。它的

not disorderly, but it's not determined, and it has recursive
不是无序的,但也不是确定的,它具有递归的

loops within it so that things become enormously complex, you
在其中循环,使事情变得非常复杂,你

don't have this a leads to B leads to C. And another is that
另一种情况是

when you start to articulate what it is your civilization is
当你开始阐述你的文明是什么的时候

about, rather than getting on with it, once you start openly
而不是着手去做,一旦你开始公然

analysing it, then you lean more and more to this left hemisphere
分析它,然后你就会越来越倾向于左半球

point of view. A.N. Whitehead, Alfred North Whitehead, who I
观点。A.N. 怀特海,阿尔弗雷德-诺斯-怀特海,我

consider one of the all time greatest philosophers, and
被认为是有史以来最伟大的哲学家之一,以及

certainly of the last 100 years said, 'a civilization flourishes
在过去的 100 年里,人们肯定会说,'文明的兴盛

until it starts to analyse itself'. And that's remarkable
直到它开始自我分析"。这一点非常了不起

because Whitehead was a mathematician and a physicist,
因为怀特海是一位数学家和物理学家、

and he was the co author with Bertrand Russell of 'Principia
他与伯特兰-罗素合著了《哲学原理》(Principia

Mathematica' but he was able to see beyond, he was able to see
数学",但他能看到更远的地方,他能看到

limitations of science, limitations of reason, which is
科学的局限性、理性的局限性,这是

not to disrespect science or reason. I happen to believe our
并不是不尊重科学或理性。我碰巧相信我们的

science is not scientific enough. It's too dogmatic. I
科学不够科学。它太教条了。I

happen to believe our reason is not reasonable enough, too
碰巧认为我们的理由不够合理,太

dogmatic- and it's dogma, that's always the problem. We need
教条主义--问题总是出在教条主义上。我们需要

science we need reason but we also need to see that they can't
我们需要科学,我们需要理性,但我们也需要看到,他们不能

answer all our questions. Love is very real. Anyone who's
回答我们所有的问题。爱是非常真实的。任何一个

experienced it knows that it's one of the realest things that
经历过它的人都知道,它是最真实的东西之一。

can happen to you but according to science, for it to be real,
可以发生在你身上,但根据科学,它是真实的、

you've got to be able to see it in the lab, measure it,
你必须能够在实验室里看到它,测量它、

manipulate it. You cannot do that. And then you start
操纵它。你不能这么做。然后你开始

thinking about all the other amazing things that we
想想我们

experience, goodness, and beauty and love and all those sorts of
体验、善、美、爱以及所有这些

things come under this. There are proper limits to science,
这些都属于这个范畴。科学是有适当限度的、

proper limits to reason music, wonderful, can change your life
适当限制理由 音乐,美妙,可以改变你的生活

but it's just notes. What is the note? Absolutely nothing? Well,
但它只是音符。音符是什么?什么都不是吗?好吧

let's have another one, then. Still nothing, let's have thirt
那就再来一杯吧还是不行,再来一杯

thousand. Thirty thousand nothings are going to make up
千。三万个 "小不点 "将组成

Bachs B minor Mass, which can be one of the most powerful things
巴赫的《B 小调弥撒曲》,它是最震撼人心的作品之一

you can here. How did that happen by amalgamating so many
您可以在这里找到。如何通过合并这么多

nothings? It's because it's all in relation. It's all in
没什么?因为这一切都与关系有关。这一切都在

relationships. And what I'm suggesting is that relationships
关系。我想说的是,人际关系

are primary. They're even primary to the things that are
是首要的。它们甚至对那些

related. The things that are related, and what we call the
相关。相关的事物,也就是我们所说的

things we notice, only become what they are because of the
我们注意到的事物之所以成为它们,是因为

relationships they stand in.
他们所处的关系。

So you started us off with the Enlightenment there. Is that
所以,你从启蒙运动讲起。那是

where it all went wrong, then is it? It feels like, even in just
是哪里出了问题?感觉就像

the past five years, the world is more dogmatic? More, as it
过去五年,世界变得更加教条?更多,因为它

were, left brain? 是,左脑?

It's accelerated. 加速了

So, the chronology then, is it just gradually more and more
那么,从时间顺序上看,它是否只是逐渐越来越多地

left brained? And then more and more so or are there particular
左脑?然后越来越多?

points and are we in one at the moment where it's suddenly
点,而我们现在是否正处于一个突然的

speeded up? 加速?

Well, I mean, how long have you got? But I mean, to put it very
你还有多长时间?但我的意思是,说白了

simply, there have been movements, back and forwards.
简单地说,就是有来有往。

There have been corrections at various times and after the
在不同的时期,以及在

Enlightenment came Romanticism, which- the name 'Romantic' sort
启蒙运动带来了浪漫主义,而 "浪漫主义 "这个名字则是一种

of seems to mean that it's not serious or important- but in
似乎意味着它不严重或不重要--但在

fact, the thinking and the art that came out of it is very
事实上,由此产生的思想和艺术非常

great indeed. And so there was a correctionbut then the power of
这确实是个大问题。于是,出现了一次修正,但随后的力量

the Industrial Revolution led to this machine-like way of
工业革命导致了这种机器式的生产方式

thinking about living things, and we've never really lost
对生物的思考,我们从未真正失去过

that. And although there are great artists in Modernism and
这一点。尽管现代主义和

Postmodernism, it's interesting... The ways of
后现代主义,真有趣的方式

seeing the world that normally would only happen to somebody
看到通常只会发生在某些人身上的世界

who had an injury in the right hemisphere, start to be
右半球受伤,开始

represented in the visual arts in the 20th century... It's just
在 20 世纪视觉艺术中的代表......只是

a fact. And I'm not saying it's all rubbish, I'm just saying,
一个事实。我不是说这些都是垃圾,我只是说说而已、

things that we would not normally experience unless we
除非我们

were not using our right hemisphere start to be
不使用我们的右半球就会开始

visualised. And there's a wonderful book called 'Madness
可视化。有一本很棒的书叫做《疯狂

and Modernism' about this topic, how twenty or thirty types of
和现代主义 "这一主题,以及二三十种

things you find in schizophrenia are now happening, and are being
你在精神分裂症中发现的事情现在正在发生,并且正在

portrayed in our culture. And it's not that we've all got
在我们的文化中。这并不是说我们都有

schizophrenia. Of course, we haven't but what I think it is,
精神分裂症。当然,我们还不知道,但我认为这就是精神分裂症、

we're all neglecting the right hemisphere. And if you like,
我们都忽视了右半球。如果你喜欢

schizophrenia is a case in which the left hemisphere has gone
精神分裂症是一种左半球失调的病例。

into overdrive, and the right hemisphere has been wound down
进入超速状态,而右半球已被关闭

or is not really being listened to and this leads to delusions
或没有被真正倾听,从而产生错觉

and hallucinations. I think we are now in a world, which is
和幻觉。我认为我们现在所处的世界是

fully deluded. We're all fairly reasonable people I imagine in
完全被蒙蔽了。我想我们都是相当通情达理的人。

this room, but now it's quite common to hear people say, and
但现在人们经常会说

for them to go completely unchallenged, things that
让他们完全不受质疑,这些事情

everybody knows are completely impossible. They don't have any
每个人都知道这是完全不可能的。他们没有任何

science behind them and no reason in flat contrary to
其背后的科学依据,也没有任何理由违背

experience. 经验

Such as? 例如?

I think you know what I'm talking about. So there are
我想你知道我在说什么。所以有

aspects of our culture that have become very vociferous and very
我们的文化在某些方面已经变得非常喧嚣、非常

irrational, and very dogmatic and very hubristic, 'this is
非理性,非常教条,非常狂妄,'这是

right, and anyone who says other is wrong.' And that is, that's
对的人是对的,说不对的人是错的'。这就是,这就是

the way the left hemisphere likes to be. Cut and dried,
左半球喜欢的方式。一针见血

black and white, but the right hemisphere sees nuances,
黑白分明,但右半球却能看到细微差别、

gradation, so there's good and bad in almost everything.
因此,几乎任何事物都有好坏之分。

So do you think we have ever been in as
那么,你认为我们曾经在

left-hemisphere-dominated a moment as we are now?
像我们现在这样以左半球为主的时刻?

No, I think this is un-hitherto-seen.
不,我认为这是前所未见的。

Do you think technology has something to do with that? You
你认为技术与此有关吗?你认为

talk about how it's a representation, we now literally
说到它是如何代表的,我们现在简直就是

look at a representation in screen form every day, it feels
每天看着屏幕上的表象,感觉

like we are further and further removed from a kind of intuitive
就好像我们离一种直观的

present experience in the world. Do you think that could be part
目前在世界上的经历。你认为这可能是

of it? 的?

I think it definitely is. Physics a very long time ago, at
我认为肯定是这样。很久以前的物理学

least 100 years ago, learnt that the Universe was not as Newton
至少在 100 年前,他就知道宇宙并不像牛顿

had described it as a vast mechanism. It didn't have any of
说它是一个巨大的装置。它没有任何

the features of a machine. And unfortunately, biology was a lot
机器的特征。不幸的是,生物学有很多

slower in catching up with this. So you had the rather
跟不上进度。所以,你有相当

extraordinary position where the science of the inanimate showed
非凡的地位,无生命的科学显示了

a universe that had to be perceived in a consciousness.
一个必须在意识中被感知的宇宙。

And the science of the animate world, suggested that we were
有生命世界的科学表明,我们是

all just machines and consciousness didn't exist. I
都只是机器,意识并不存在。I

think that's beginning to shift. Now, there were very hopeful
我认为这种情况已经开始转变。现在,人们非常希望

signs that biologists are beginning to see that it's far
有迹象表明,生物学家开始认识到,这远远

more complicated than that and the machine model doesn't work.
如果比这更复杂,机器模型就不起作用了。

But that has left a legacy that only somebody who thinks in this
但是,这留下的遗产,只有以这种方式思考问题的人

mechanical way, is being rational. And I'd like to make a
机械的方式,就是理性。我想说的是

distinction, by the way between what I would call a sort of
顺便说一句,我把这两者区分为一种

rationalistic approach to something and being reasonable.
对某事采取理性的态度,合情合理。

Being reasonable was something I remember from when I was growing
讲道理是我成长过程中的记忆

up. There were reasonable people and they were admired and the
了。有些人是通情达理的,他们受到人们的敬佩,而有些人则是不讲道理的。

idea of an education was to make you reasonable. But now, that
教育的理念就是让你变得通情达理。但现在

has been supplanted by something quite different, which is a
已被一种截然不同的东西所取代,这就是

rationalising framework such as a computer could follow. So
合理化框架,如计算机。因此

we've been pushed by the development of our machines, the
在机器发展的推动下,我们已经

increasing sophistication of machines, the intoxicating
日益先进的机器,令人陶醉的

feeling that we have power over the world, into viewing it in
觉得我们可以主宰世界,变成用

this reductionist, materialist way. And the trouble with power
这种还原论的唯物主义方式。权力的问题

is that it's only as good as the wisdom of the person who wields
就是说,它的好坏取决于使用它的人的智慧。

it. And I don't notice that we're getting wiser. In fact, I
它。我没有注意到我们变得更聪明了。事实上,我

think that would be an understatement. So it's rather
我想这未免太轻描淡写了。因此,它相当

like putting machine guns in the hands of toddlers and then
就像把机关枪放在幼儿手中,然后

hoping there's going to be a happy outcome.
希望能有个好结果。

So we're not living in an age of reason, after all. Is that fair?
所以,我们毕竟不是生活在一个理性的时代。这公平吗?

Absolutely. We're living in an age of rationalising and
当然。我们生活在一个合理化和

reductionism in which everything can be taken apart, and it's
在还原论中,一切都可以被拆分开来,它是

just a bit. 只是一点点。

And yet it feels like the people in charge, whoever they are,
然而,不管负责人是谁,感觉都是如此、

whether it's in charge of the culture, or in charge of the
无论是负责文化,还是负责

media are in charge of the political institutions, are very
媒体负责政治机构,非常

committed to this rationalist framework. And reading your book
致力于这一理性主义框架。阅读您的书

'The Matter with Things', I was just continually reminded of
物是人非》让我不断想起

what we come across in the day to day political conversation,
我们在日常政治对话中遇到的问题、

which is an absolute insistence that particular mechanistic
这就是绝对坚持特定的机械论

world is the only option and those people who take a
世界是唯一的选择,而那些采取......

different view or don't sign up to whatever the current precept
不同的观点,或者不签署目前的戒律

is are considered outcasts, yes? Do you recognise that in the in
他们被视为弃儿,是吗?您是否认识到,在

the more day-to-day political world as well? Do you think we
更日常的政治世界?您认为我们

can learn from your framework when just reading the paper or
在阅读报纸时,可以从您的框架中学习,或者

watching the news? Do you think we need to be remembering Ian
看新闻?你认为我们需要记住伊恩吗?

McGilchrist and thinking, 'this is left brain stuff, block it
麦克吉尔克里斯特,然后想,'这是左脑的东西,挡住它

out'? 出'?

I hope people will apply these ideas. I find that people
我希望人们能够运用这些想法。我发现人们

spontaneously do in all walks of life, which is very pleasing to
在各行各业自发地做,这让人非常高兴

find out. But yes, I do think that. I suppose there was an
发现。不过,是的,我确实这么认为。我想

almost equivalent period- it was very short lived- of Puritanism,
这一时期几乎等同于清教时期,但却非常短暂、

when it was absolutely not tolerated for you to disagree
当你不同意的时候,是绝对不能容忍的

with a certain way of thinking, which was, in fact, a very
某种思维方式,而这种思维方式实际上是一种非常

dogmatic, reduced abstracted way of thinking. But I think at that
教条化、抽象化的思维方式。但我认为

point, we hadn't reached the stage that we're at now, very,
当时,我们还没有达到现在这个阶段、

obviously, where it's harder and harder to articulate, but very
显然,这一点越来越难以表达,但非常

much needs to be articulated. Because at that time in history,
需要阐明的东西很多。因为在那个历史时期

people lived close to nature. Almost everybody was surrounded
人们亲近大自然。几乎每个人的周围

by nature. Most people belonged to an inherited culture, a
天性使然。大多数人都属于一种继承下来的文化,一种

coherent culture, which also involved a religious element.
连贯的文化,其中也包含宗教因素。

And art had not been turned into something conceptual, but was
艺术并没有变成概念性的东西,而是

visceral and moving. And religion had not been presented
直观、感人。而宗教并没有

as something that only a fool or an infant would believe. These
只有傻瓜或婴儿才会相信。这些

are all very arrogant positions that we now hold but what I'm
我们现在所持的都是非常傲慢的立场,但我想说的是

saying is that those things, proximity to nature, to the
我的意思是说,这些东西,接近自然,接近

place where you live, and the people, you live with, a
你生活的地方,以及与你生活在一起的人。

culture, some sense of something beyond this realm, which is
文化,某种超越这个领域的感觉,这就是

important, it might be religious, or it might just be
它可能是重要的,可能是宗教的,也可能只是

spiritual, we know that these things are the key to human
精神,我们知道这些东西是人类

flourishing. They make people healthier, both physically and
繁荣。它们使人们的身体和精神更加健康。

mentally, if they have this context in which to live. We've
精神上,如果他们有这样的生活环境。我们已经

done away with that and so now all we're left with is public
因此,现在我们只剩下公共

debate about things. And it's very easy for somebody to say,
辩论的事情。有人很容易说:

'well, you've just contradicted yourself'. But in fact, if
好吧,你自相矛盾了"。但事实上,如果

you're onto the truth, at some level of reality you will
你是对的,在现实的某个层面上,你会

contradict yourself, because there's something called the
自相矛盾,因为有一种东西叫做

coincidence of opposites, which I have a whole chapter on and
对立面的巧合,我用了整整一章的篇幅来论述,并且

it's foundational, I think, to my view of the cosmos, is that
我认为,它是我宇宙观的基础,那就是

if you push farther and farther in one direction, you don't get
如果你在一个方向上越走越远,你就不会

farther and farther away from the thing you hope to flee, you
离你希望逃离的东西越来越远,你就会

start finding that you're approaching it again, like in
开始发现你又在接近它,就像在

Alice, where she was told to walk away from the door if she
爱丽丝在那里被告知,如果她

wanted to go into it. And this is where we now are that we
想进入这个领域。这就是我们现在的情况

think, 'Oh, this was good. So let's have more and more and
认为'哦,这很好。'所以,让我们越做越多,越做越好。

more of it.' 'Let's have more and more freedom' of a certain
更多'。让我们拥有越来越多的自由'的某种

kind. That in history has always ended in tyranny. Things lead to
一种。这在历史上总是以暴政告终。事情导致

the opposite if pushed far enough. We need to be harmonious
反之亦然。我们需要和谐

in our thinking, we need to be balanced. We need to have some
在我们的思维中,我们需要平衡。我们需要有一些

equilibrium to our thoughts, and we don't at the moment.
我们的思想需要平衡,而现在我们没有。

Those people who do dissent from this rationalist framework are
那些不同意这种理性主义框架的人是

often demonised as kooks or worse yet, and you see it all
他们往往被妖魔化为怪人,甚至更糟,而你看到的是

the time. It's a very heretical and big thought that they may
时间。这是一个非常异端的大想法,他们可能会

actually be the wiser ones in our society. How should we think
实际上,我们的社会才是更明智的社会。我们应该如何思考

about that? The people in charge, who are so sneering
是什么?那些冷嘲热讽的负责人

often at people who, either because of religious belief, or
往往是针对那些因为宗教信仰或

because they don't sign up to whatever the current thing is,
因为不管现在的事情是什么,他们都不会报名参加、

they suffer kind of a great deal. I'm just wondering, how
他们受了很多苦。我只是想知道

can we distinguish between those alternative voices that are
我们能否区分这些不同的声音?

actually wise, versus the ones that are kooks?
实际上是明智的,与那些怪人相比呢?

Well, I was going to say yes. The first thing is that just
我本来想说是的。首先是

having a differing point of view doesn't mean you're necessarily
有不同观点并不意味着你一定

wise. You could be kooky and some are, but nonetheless, I
明智。你可能是个怪人,有些人确实是,但无论如何,我

think those who are wise do have a position far different from
认为那些聪明人的立场与

the one that is now instilled in us in schools and through the
现在在学校里和通过教育机构向我们灌输的思想

media and so forth, which is, in fact, a very impoverished vision
媒体等等,这实际上是一种非常贫乏的视野

of life. It's lost all its beauty, its richness, its
的生活。它失去了所有的美丽、丰富,以及

complexity and become very simple, sterile, repellent. And
复杂性,变得非常简单、无菌、令人生厌。还有

so, I think, if we could begin to suspend our judgments that
因此,我认为,如果我们能够开始暂停我们的判断,即

somebody who differs from this is automatically wrong and
与此不同的人就自动是错误的,而且

listen to what they have to say, we'd be making steps forward. I
听取他们的意见,我们就会向前迈进。I

would say that a civilization cannot thrive. If differing
就会说,一个文明不可能繁荣昌盛。如果不同的

points of view cannot be heard. Hannah Arendt, one of the
听不到观点。汉娜-阿伦特是

greatest philosophers of the last 100 years, who was herself,
她就是近百年来最伟大的哲学家、

a German Jew, and experienced Nazism, said that 'once
德国犹太人,经历过纳粹主义,他说:"一旦

something can't be said, you're already in a tyranny'. So, it is
有些话不能说,因为你已经处于暴政之中'。因此

indisputable that we are all now living in Britain, in 2023, in a
不争的事实是,2023 年,我们都生活在英国,生活在一个

tyranny, because there are people who say, 'you can't say
暴政,因为有人说,'你不能说

these things and there will be terrible consequences if you
这些事情,如果你

do'. And you know what I mean .
做'。你知道我的意思.

Let's talk about science a little bit. You have a big
让我们来谈谈科学。你有一个大

section on science, and in particular, how, although you're
关于科学的部分,特别是,尽管你

a big advocate, of course of science, you are a scientist-
您当然是科学的忠实拥护者,您是科学家

I'm a scientist. 我是科学家

You feel like it's taking a wrong turn. When does science
你觉得它走错了方向。科学何时

become scientism? 成为科学主义?

When it quite simply says that he can answer all our questions.
它只是说,他可以回答我们所有的问题。

A moment's reflection shows that there are so many things that
稍加思考就会发现,有许多事情

are important in our life, that science can't fully explain to
在我们的生活中,科学无法完全解释的重要因素

us, the beauty of a rainbow, of a wonderful landscape, of a
我们,彩虹之美,奇妙的风景之美,......

piece of music, its importance and meaning, which is very real.
音乐的重要性和意义,这是非常真实的。

It's not irrational or unscientific. t's just beyond
这并不是不合理或不科学。

the grasp of science and reason. It's illogical, irrational and
科学和理性的掌握。它不合逻辑、不合理,而且

itself unscientific to suppose that science can answer all our
认为科学可以回答我们所有的问题,这本身就是不科学的。

questions. Science is only supposed to admit things which
问题。科学只应该承认那些

can be proved to be the case but it cannot be proved to be the
可以证明是,但不能证明是

case that science can answer all our questions. It's not a
科学可以回答我们所有的问题。这不是一个

scientific assumptio, it's an assumption of faith. And
科学假设,是一种信仰假设。而且

scientism is a faith. Much as I would say, there are
科学主义是一种信仰。正如我想说的,有

fundamentalist religious, who I very much regret. And there are
原教旨主义宗教徒,我对他们深表遗憾。还有

fundamentalist atheists who I regret just as much. I think the
原教旨主义无神论者,我对他们同样感到遗憾。我认为

reasonable person is somebody who has an open mind. And it's
通情达理的人就是思想开放的人。而这

only by opening your mind that you experience what it was you
只有敞开心扉,你才能体验到什么是你

were missing before. It's rather like a figure of fun in earlier
之前所缺少的。这颇像早期的趣味图

philosophy called Simplices, who wants to learn to swim. And so
她的哲学名叫 Simplices,她想学游泳。于是

he just sits on the bank, and he reads about how to swim but in
他只是坐在岸上,阅读关于如何游泳的书籍,但在

fact, you can't learn how to swim until you get into the
事实上,只有进入水里,才能学会游泳。

water. To actually understand many of these things, you have
水。要真正理解其中的许多内容,你必须

to behave at least as if for the time being, you're willing to be
至少要表现得好像你愿意暂时

part of it, and then you find out what it is that you didn't
部分,然后你就会发现你没

see before. and at the moment, we are just too rigid. And
而现在,我们只是太死板了。而且

science has become dogmatic, for example, for a long time, it's
科学变得教条化,例如,长期以来,它

been saying there cannot be fields of form. In a way, Rupert
一直在说不能有形式领域。在某种程度上,鲁伯特

Sheldrake has been the person who's promoted this idea. And he
谢尔德里克一直在推广这一观点。而他

has always been rigorously empirical. He's always said,
一直都是严谨的实证主义者。他总是说

'look, here are experiments you can do, carry them out.' And if
'听着,这里有你可以做的实验,去做吧。如果

he says that to dogmatic scientists, some of whose names
他说,对教条主义科学家来说,其中一些人的名字

begin with D, they say, 'we don't need to do the experiment,
从 D 开始,他们说,'我们不需要做实验、

because we know it's wrong.' Now, that is not science. That
因为我们知道这是错的。这不是科学。这

is the opposite of science. So now we are discovering that
是科学的反面。因此,我们现在发现

there are fields of form that are important in physics, and
有些形式领域在物理学中很重要,而

are probably the explanation for how organisms are aware of a
这可能是解释生物如何意识到一个

form. You see, we thought that once we decoded DNA, we'd found
形式。你看,我们以为一旦解码了 DNA,我们就找到了

everything in there, but it's just a strip as it were. And
里面的一切,但它只是一个带状的东西。还有

where in that do you find the exact position of something in
你在哪里可以找到某样东西的确切位置?

the brain that has a nucleus that- no, it's a form. And if
不,这是一种形式。如果

you cut something off a certain organism, it will regrow to that
你从某个生物体上切下一些东西,它就会重新长成那个样子

form? I don't know the answer to where this is but what I like to
表格?我不知道答案在哪里,但我想

think is, I was a representative of a science that was interested
我认为,我是一门科学的代表,这门科学感兴趣的是

in all the possibilities, in testing them and looking and
在所有的可能性中,在对它们进行测试、观察和

finding out, not just shutting one's mind saying, 'no, no, no,
发现,而不是闭着眼睛说'不,不,不'、

no, can't be!' 不,不可能!'

And that's where we are?
这就是我们的现状?

I think that's the worst of science. I think there are good
我认为这是科学最糟糕的地方。我认为有好的

scientists, and there are now at last good life scientists,
现在终于有了优秀的生命科学家、

biologists who are who are being imaginative and seeing these
那些富有想象力的生物学家,他们看到了这些

things and talking in a much more holistic way about things.
事情,并以更全面的方式谈论事情。

And they've got a long way to go yet to catch up with physics. I
要赶上物理学,他们还有很长的路要走。I

find that the scientists who are most interested in my work are
我发现对我的工作最感兴趣的科学家是

actually physicist. Lots of them have written to me out of the
实际上是物理学家。他们中的很多人都曾写信给我,出于

blue and said, 'it's absolutely fascinating what you say'.
蓝说,'你说的话太吸引人了'。

Because these two different ways, if you'd like to give a
因为有了这两种不同的方式,如果您想给一个

simple taste of this, rather like the differences between the
这种简单的滋味,就像""和""之间的差异。

wave and the particle, the one is specifiable here exactly at
波和粒子,其中一个可以在这里准确地说明,即

this moment in time and the other is actually existent over
在这一时刻,而另一个时刻则是实际存在的。

a broader area and is not certainly specified.
范围较广,没有明确说明。

You had an appendix in the first volume, entitled 'Why we should
您在第一卷中有一个附录,题为 "为什么我们应该

be sceptical of public science?'
对公共科学持怀疑态度?

Oh yes. 哦,是的。

Which went into some examples of- and this clearly was
其中举了一些例子--这显然是

annoying you- that there's actually... The way public
恼人的你--实际上...公众

science is conducted... Well, you tell us.
进行科学研究......你说呢

Public science is not the same target as science. Public
公共科学与科学的目标不同。公众

science is run by administrators. And they have
科学是由行政人员管理的。他们有

various bees in their bonnet, that we should all do this and
我们都应该这样做,并且

do that and do the other in order to be healthy. And
为了健康,我们要做这做那。还有

usually, when you come to examine the science, it's much
通常情况下,当你研究科学时,会发现它更

more complicated than that, and often doesn't support the
比这更复杂,而且往往不支持

position at all. There's also a problem with the idea of, I wish
立场。还有一个问题是,我希望

I had time to explain all these things, but with the idea of
我有时间解释所有这些事情,但我的想法是

peer review. Peer review is the basic idea of science, you send
同行评审。同行评议是科学的基本理念,你发送

it to another scientist, what do they think about it? There are
他们会怎么想?有

all kinds of pitfalls in this. It can be corrupted, and it can
这其中存在各种隐患。它可能被破坏,也可能

not happen at all. And there are journals that will publish for a
根本不会发生。也有一些期刊会为一个

fee- and a lot of them now have come into being, they're called
现在有很多这样的机构,它们被称为

predatory journals. In order to survive as a scientist and have
掠夺性期刊。作为一名科学家,为了生存,为了

a career you have to have published. One of the problems
你必须发表过作品。问题之一

for many scientists is finding anyone who's willing to publish
对于许多科学家来说,找到愿意发表论文的人

what they've done. And there are now journals, a lot of them
他们做了什么。现在有很多期刊

based in China, I regret to report that solicit articles and
我很遗憾地向您报告,在中国征集文章和

will basically publish anything as long as you pay them to
只要你付钱给他们,他们基本上会出版任何东西

publish it. So that's not how science should work. And there's
出版。所以,科学不应该是这样运作的。还有

an amusing example of this. There's a man, a computer
一个有趣的例子。有一个人,一台电脑

scientist in Australia called Peter, I think, who was annoyed
我想是澳大利亚一个叫彼得的科学家,他很恼火

by constant solicitations from the International Academic Study
国际学术研究中心的不断邀请

of Computer Science or something like this. And so he wrote to
计算机科学或类似的东西。于是他写信给

them, finally, to ask them to take him off their mailing list.
最后,请他们把他从邮件列表中删除。

He submitted a paper, which was called 'Take me off your fucking
他提交了一篇论文,题目是 "把我从你那该死的

mailing list'. And the paper was seven pages long and consisted
邮件列表"。该文件长达七页,内容包括

only of the sentence 'take me off your fucking mailing list',
只有一句 "把我从你那该死的邮件列表上删掉"、

repeated to the end of the paper. It also had a diagram in
一直重复到文末。文件中还有一张图表

it, a flow diagram with little circles leading with arrows,
它是一个用小圆圈和箭头引导的流程图、

'take me off...!' It was brilliant and he was
带我走......!太精彩了,他

flabbergasted to discover that the journal wrote to him and
他惊奇地发现,这本杂志给他写了一封信,并且

said that his paper had been peer reviewed and accepted for
他说,他的论文已通过同行评审,并被

publication, on a fee, which he declined to pay. But this is, I
他拒绝支付出版费。但是,我

mean, that's an extreme example, but there's an awful lot of this
我的意思是,这只是一个极端的例子,但有很多这样的例子

now. You'd be very credulous to believe that everything that you
现在如果你相信你所做的一切,那你就大错特错了。

read is said to be science is science. But this is a problem
所谓科学就是科学。但这是一个问题

of living. Intuition is a very important faculty, it has been
的生活。直觉是一种非常重要的能力。

now been programmed into distrusting. And in fact, that's
不信任。事实上,这就是

made us as stupid as we are. A lot of the really stupid things
让我们变得如此愚蠢。很多真正愚蠢的事情

that we know seem to believe, the sort of mass delusions would
我们所知道的人似乎相信,那种大众妄想会

never have come about if we'd use our intuition. But intuition
如果我们运用直觉,就永远不会有这样的事情发生。但直觉

can be fallible. Absolutely, reason can be fallible. One way
可能会出错。当然,理性也会犯错。一种方法

of describing schizophrenia is, and this has been said more than
描述精神分裂症的方法是--这一点已经说过不止一次了。

once by people who didn't know that they've said this, that the
有一次,一些人不知道自己说过这些话,他们说

madman is not somebody who's lost his reason. It's the person
疯子不是失去理智的人。他是一个

who's lost everything but his reason. And, in other words,
他失去了一切,只剩下理智。换句话说

leads by causation chains, to conclusions that are logically
通过因果关系链,得出符合逻辑的结论。

possible but to anyone who actually lives experientially,
可能,但对任何真正体验生活的人来说都是如此、

they're not likely, for example, there are voices in the room,
例如,房间里有声音、

and there's nobody there. So it must be coming from the
那里没有人所以一定是从

electricity socket, or from the neighbours or from outer space.
电源插座,或来自邻居或外太空。

But most of us don't think like that because as well as having a
但我们中的大多数人不会这么想,因为我们除了有一个

chain of reasoning, we also have a faculty of reasonable
在推理链中,我们也有一种合理的能力。

judgement based on experience that says, well, this is
基于经验的判断说,嗯,这是

extraordinarily unlikely on what I know. And this is more likely.
据我所知,这种可能性极小。而这个可能性更大。

So, I'm not attacking science, I'm just saying that science is
所以,我不是在攻击科学,我只是说科学是

not immune from all the problems that go with being a human
无法避免作为人类的所有问题

being. It's practised by humans, with all their greed, their
是。这是人类的做法,他们的贪婪、他们的

ambitiousness and so forth, competitiveness. And so it's a
野心等等,竞争力。因此,这是一种

minefield, you have to use your discrimination, you have to do a
雷区,你必须运用你的辨别力,你必须做一个

lot of hard work. When people say something, look it up. I
很多艰苦的工作。别人说什么,你就查什么。I

spent thirty years looking up things that people said were
花了三十年的时间去查找那些人们说是

true and finding out how evidence based they were.
并找出它们的证据基础。

The world you describe has gone it would seem very wrong. And it
你所描述的世界似乎已经大错特错。它

almost seems bewildering, how to set about fixing it. You have
如何解决这个问题几乎令人困惑。您有

moved to a The Isle of Skye-
迁至斯凯岛

Everybody's followed me unfortunately. Yes, you were saying that the tourists have followed you. But
不幸的是,每个人都跟着我。是的,你刚才说游客都跟着你。但是

do you have hope that this can be fixed, that this civilization
你是否希望这一切能够得到解决,希望这种文明

can be righted? Or do you think now it's the time just to
可以纠正?还是说,你认为现在应该

withdraw and hope for the best or wait for some new
是退缩不前,望洋兴叹,还是等待新的机会?

civilizational cycle or something? Is it worth fighting
文明循环还是什么?值得一战吗?

every day to try and fix it? I think it is but in order to do that, effectively, you have to
每天都在努力解决这个问题?我想是的,但要有效地做到这一点,你必须

see what's happening. And I think if I may say so, that for
看看发生了什么。我认为,如果我可以这么说的话,对于

many people, what has opened their eyes to what is happening
是什么让许多人睁开了眼睛,看到了正在发生的一切?

is reading my work. Because once they've read it, they see what's
是在读我的作品。因为一旦他们读了我的作品,他们就会看到什么是

happening everywhere. They see these patterns forming. And it's
到处都在发生。他们看到这些模式正在形成。而这

therefore easier to see what you need to push back against. I
因此,更容易看出你需要反击什么。I

think it is possible that we may survive. I think is extremely
我认为我们有可能幸存下来。我认为这是极其

unlikely that this civilization will survive but most
这种文明不太可能存活下来,但大多数

civilizations have not lasted for more than a few 100 years.
文明持续的时间不超过几百年。

So we're just seeing parts of what happens. I think life will
所以,我们只是看到了发生的部分情况。我认为生活会

go on, but it won't be life as we know it. It's very unlikely
但它不会是我们所知的生活。不太可能

to be but why should we privilege that? We've had that
但我们为什么要赋予这种特权呢?我们已经

gift for a while, none of us is going to live forever, I'm sorry
我们都不会长生不老,对不起

to tell you. We're all only here for a while and we enjoy the
告诉你。我们都只在这里呆一段时间,我们享受

gift we've been given. And then the world moves on and something
我们得到的礼物。然后,世界继续前进,有些东西

else will come and they will have their gifts and their
其他人会来,他们会有自己的礼物和

problems. So something will survive, possibly some of us
问题。因此,有些东西会幸存下来,可能是我们中的一些人

human beings will survive and I think that if they were able to
我认为,如果他们能够

gather together in small communities, small enough to
他们聚集在小社区里,小到

trust one another, because trust is crucial here. And you can't
因为信任在这里至关重要。你不能

trust when you're in a virtual sphere of billions of people.
当你身处一个由数十亿人组成的虚拟世界时,你需要信任。

Trust is the most important thing for civilization. They can
信任是文明最重要的东西。他们可以

trust one another, honourably work together with much simpler
相互信任,光荣合作,简单得多

needs closer to the earth, not the extravagant and fantasy kind
需要更贴近地球,而不是奢华和幻想的那种

of lives that we know lead. What can we do now? Well, there's a
的生活。我们现在能做些什么呢?有一个

whole lot of things really. We can begin the work of limiting
其实有很多事情。我们可以开始限制

the damage we do to nature and that's, of course, the obvious
我们对大自然造成的破坏,这当然是显而易见的

one and is underway in many very good organisations and human
许多非常优秀的组织和人

beings in the world today. But I think we also need to
但我认为,我们也需要对当今世界上的人们进行教育。但我认为,我们还需要

reestablish some sense of who we are and what we're doing here.
重新认识我们是谁,我们在这里做什么。

And I think that although we've got all this power and machines
我认为,尽管我们已经拥有了所有这些力量和机器

that can quote 'think', they can't think at all, they can
能引用'思考',他们根本不会思考,他们能

process information extremely rapidly. We're not really wise.
我们处理信息的速度极快。我们其实并不聪明。

And one of my answers to when people say, 'what should we do?'
当人们说'我们该怎么办?

is pray. And by that, I don't mean as Heidegger said, 'only
就是祈祷。我说的祈祷并不是海德格尔所说的'只有

God can save us now'. I didn't mean that God will suddenly come
上帝现在就能拯救我们"。我不是说上帝会突然降临

down with his divine hand, sort everything out and it'll all be
用他那神圣的手,把一切都整理好,一切都会

okay. That's not gonna happen. But what I mean is that if we
好吧这是不可能的但我的意思是,如果我们

adopted a different, less arrogant, less you hubristic
采用不同的、不那么傲慢、不那么自大的方式

attitude to the world, if we incorporated some sense of the
对世界的态度,如果我们将某种意义上的

limitations to what we know and can do. If we have some
我们的知识和能力有限。如果我们有一些

humility, if we re-kindled in ourselves a sense of awe and
谦卑,如果我们重新点燃自己的敬畏感和

wonder before what is still there, in this beautiful world.
在这个美丽的世界里,我不禁要问:还有什么?

And with it, brought some compassion to our relations with
这也为我们与以下国家的关系带来了一些同情

other people. Not shouting them down, vilifying them, telling
其他人。而不是大声斥责他们、诋毁他们、告诉他们

them they're frightful, because they disagree with them,
他们是可怕的,因为他们不同意他们的观点、

reasonably talking and saying, 'okay, you disagree with me. I'm
有理有据地说,'好吧,你不同意我的观点。我

interested, explain your point of view.' And then there should
感兴趣,请解释你的观点'。然后应该

be a discussion. So we become capable of rescuing the mess
讨论。因此,我们有能力挽救混乱的局面

that we've got into but what we mustn't do is follow the
但我们不能做的是遵循

strident shrieking voices, whatever they may be saying.
尖锐的尖叫声,不管他们在说什么。

That is a wonderful moment to take a pause. If the way to save
这是一个暂停的美妙时刻。如果拯救

the world is to gather in small groups and talk openly in an
就是以小组的形式聚集在一起,坦诚地交谈。

atmosphere of trust without judgement, that is what we're
没有评判的信任氛围,这就是我们

trying to do, all of us right now. We'll take a 15 minute
我们所有人现在都在努力。我们将用 15 分钟

pause. The bar is open and questions afterwards. I think the key, which establishes your credentials, in
暂停。酒吧是开放的,之后还有问题。我认为关键在于,它能确立你的资历,在

my view, is your statement that consciousness and matter are the
在我看来,你所说的意识和物质是

same things and there's no temporal aspect.
同样的事情,没有时间性。

Let him address that? Because we've got to get lots of
让他解决这个问题?因为我们必须得到很多

questions. Consciousness and matter?
问题意识和物质?

Well, that's an easy one. As you know, I hold consciousness to be
这个问题很简单。众所周知,我认为意识是

an ontological primitive. That is to say, it's not derived from
是一种本体论基元。也就是说,它不是从

anything else but it is, as it were, a primary constituent of
其他任何东西,但它却是

the cosmos. I don't think that consciousness is somehow
宇宙。我不认为意识在某种程度上

secreted by the brain, I believe it is in everything. I am a
我相信它存在于万物之中。我是一个

pan-psychist, which is not at all an unusual position for
泛心理学家,这对于

philosophers these days, even in the West. And I'm also a
如今,即使是在西方,哲学家也是如此。我也是一个

pantheist, as it happens, but we won't go there. And matter, I
但我们不讨论这个问题。而物质,我

think, is a phase of consciousness. And when I say
我认为,这是意识的一个阶段。当我说

phase, I don't mean a temporal phase. I mean, a physical phase,
阶段,我指的不是时间阶段。我指的是物理阶段、

as in water has phases. In one it's ice, in another, it's
就像水是有阶段的一样。一个阶段是冰,另一个阶段是

flowing. In another, it's just dispersed in the atmosphere. So
流动。在另一种情况下,它只是分散在大气中。所以

people say well matter doesn't look like consciousness. Well,
人们说物质看起来不像意识。好吧

no but what's dispersed in this room doesn't look like a river
没有,但散落在这个房间里的东西看起来不像一条河

or a lump of ice. They have different qualities, but it's
或一块冰。它们有不同的品质,但都是

the same material if you'd like to put it that way. Thank you.
如果你愿意这样说的话,那就是相同的材料。谢谢。

I just don't like the word 'esotericist', because it's
我只是不喜欢'神秘主义者'这个词,因为它

conflated with all kinds of sort of woowoo. And one thing I am
与各种 "呜呼 "混为一谈。有一件事我

not is woowoo but on the other hand, I am very open to the
但另一方面,我也非常乐于接受

insights of mystical traditions, East and West.
东西方神秘传统的洞察力。

How do you listen to music?
您是如何听音乐的?

Well, there's no need to sort of approach it consciously and
那么,就没有必要有意识地接近它,而

analytically, because it's a whole intuitive experience,
因为这是一个完整的直观体验、

hearing music to which we as a whole respond, including our
聆听我们作为一个整体所响应的音乐,包括我们的

whole body, nevermind bits of our brain. As you possibly know,
整个身体,更不用说我们的大脑了。你们可能知道

in most people who are not professional musicians, most of
在大多数非职业音乐家中,大部分

music is appreciable, principally by the right
音乐是可以欣赏的,主要是通过正确的

hemisphere. That's to say melody and harmony. The only bit that
半球。也就是旋律与和声。唯一的一点是

the left hemisphere seems to get generally is rhythm, but even
左半球似乎一般都能获得节奏感,但即使是

complex rhythms, syncopations and so on a better process by
复杂的节奏、切分音等,通过以下方式更好地处理

the right hemisphere. It's an interesting observation that
右半球。一个有趣的现象是

music has progressed if we can use that word in the context to
如果我们可以在以下语境中使用这个词,那么音乐已经取得了进步

something which is largely rhythm without melody or
主要是节奏,没有旋律或

harmony. So that's what I'd say. One simply appreciates it with
和谐。这就是我要说的。我们只需用

one's whole brain. I think one can get caught up in the idea
一个人的整个大脑。我认为一个人可能会沉浸在这样的想法中

that somehow each brain is isolatedly hearing one thing and
每个大脑都在孤立地听着一件事,而

no, because there's communication between the two
不,因为两者之间有交流

hemispheres. The sound is coming all from both ears. It's like
半球。声音全部来自两只耳朵。就像

the conversation I just had with a lady about sight. I mean it
我刚刚和一位女士就视力问题进行的谈话。我是说

isis not a rigorous split that's going on here. I'm talking about
这里发生的并不是严格的分裂。我说的是

something at a higher level, about the way in Which the world
更高层次的东西,关于世界的方式

is put together by each hemisphere. and that's
是由每个半球组合而成的。

demonstrated really different. If you isolate one hemisphere of
显示出真正的不同。如果你把一个半球的

time, you find a different personality with different
你会发现不同的个性有不同的

preferences. There is no question about that.
偏好。这一点毋庸置疑。

Is the difference between the male and female brain?
男性和女性的大脑有区别吗?

Yes. 是的。

Would you care to elaborate?
您能详细说明一下吗?

Oh gosh, this one that always comes up. And the trouble is
天哪,这个问题总是出现。问题是

that to answer it in a sensitive way and not set up a lot of
以一种敏感的方式回答问题,而不是设置很多

hairs, I'd have to spend quite a lot of time answerinf it. If I
我必须花很多时间来回答这个问题。如果我

tried to put it very simply, I think it's certainly not true at
简单地说,我认为这肯定不是真的。

all that the right hemisphere somehow female on the left
右半球在某种程度上是左半球的女性

hemisphere, male. If anything it's the opposite. For example,
半球,男性。如果有的话,情况正好相反。举个例子

what's established beyond doubt is that women's excellence in
毋庸置疑的是,女性在以下领域的卓越表现

skills is often linguistic. Whereas for men, they may be
技能往往是语言方面的。而对于男性来说,他们可能

much less linguistic, but more able to manipulate things in
语言能力大大降低,但却更能在以下方面操纵事物

space, visual and spatial manipulation. And that is the
空间、视觉和空间操作。这就是

right hemisphere property largely and linguistic fluency
右半球属性在很大程度上与语言流畅性有关

is largely a left hemisphere property. And in utero, it is
主要是左半球的特性。而在子宫内

testosterone that causes the right hemisphere to expand. I
睾酮会导致右半球扩张。I

could go on and on and on. In fact, the right hemisphere is
还可以继续说下去。事实上,右半球是

bigger than the left, as I often say, but that's almost entirely
正如我常说的那样,"左 "比 "右 "大,但这几乎完全是

due to the influence of males who have bigger right
由于男性的影响,他们拥有更大的权利

hemispheres than left. Women's hemispheres are more similar to
女性的大脑半球比左侧的女性的大脑半球更类似于

one another. And that takes me to the I suppose the point I was
彼此。这让我想到了我刚才说的一点

going to make, which is that, I think it's pretty indisputable
那就是,我认为这是毋庸置疑的

that that male brains are more specialised, the left and right.
男性的左右脑更加专业化。

Whereas in female brains, there's more overlap between the
而女性大脑中的

left and right. So there's more of the right about the left and
左和右。因此,左派和右派中右派更多。

more of the Left about the right than there is in a man. And this
左派对右派的影响比一个人的影响还要大。而这

has the consequence that if you have a stroke in a certain place
其后果是,如果你在某个地方中风

in a woman, she's more likely to be able to recover using another
在女性身上,她更有可能通过使用另一种

part of the other hemisphere than is a man. And I think that
我认为,在另一个半球上,人类比人类更有能力。我认为

because, from an evolutionary point of view, women are
因为从进化的角度来看,女性是

absolutely essential. They're the ones that carry on the
是绝对必要的。是他们延续了

species, and men are somewhat dispensable. I mean, they can be
而男人在某种程度上是可有可无的。我的意思是,他们可以

experimented with by nature. And so you get men who are very
大自然的实验。因此,你会遇到一些非常

extreme left hemisphere, or very extreme right hemisphere. And
极左半球或极右半球。还有

don't forget that all those mathematicians and so on are
别忘了,那些数学家等都是

great mathematicians, because of their right hemisphere, not
伟大的数学家,因为他们的右半球,而不是

because of their left. The left hemisphere is good at
因为他们的左脑。左半球擅长

calculation can carry out procedures, but actually, the
计算可以进行程序,但实际上,......

business of doing maths and so on is very right hemisphere. So
做数学之类的事情是非常右半球的。所以

it's a complicated picture but that's probably the most I want
情况很复杂,但这可能是我最想要的了

to say about it right now. Neither is better. it's just
我现在无话可说。两者都没有更好。

different ways of being. 不同的存在方式。

Great. Let's go to towards the back of the room shall we? I'm thinking about how we're moving towards the left, do you
好极了我们去房间后面,好吗?我在想我们如何朝左边走,你呢

think that it has anything to do also with language and speech we
我们认为这也与语言和言语有关。

were taught? I remember in a podcast with Sam Harris, you
被教导?我记得在萨姆-哈里斯的播客中,你

were saying speech comes from the left side of the brain. And
他们说语言来自左脑。还有

so speech inherently has to be limiting and break things down
因此,语言本身就必须具有限制性,并对事物进行分解

in order to communicate. I mean, Roger Scruton wrote us on
以便交流。我的意思是,罗杰-斯克鲁顿(Roger Scruton)写道

'Effing the Ineffable', which of course, you can't do. So, is
Effing the Ineffable",当然,你不能这么做。那么

there anything to that, the fact that we have language and that
我们有语言这一事实有什么意义吗?

it starts progressing our brains towards the left side?
我们的大脑开始向左侧发展?

Yes, undoubtedly one of the big developments of the human brain
是的,这无疑是人类大脑的重大发展之一

is is language in general, and speech. And speech in most right
是一般的语言和言语。而语言在大多数情况下

handers, 97% is in the left hemisphere. In the case of left
在左撇子的大脑中,97% 在左半球。左撇子

handers, it's 60% in the left hemisphere, 40% in the right
手,60%在左半球,40%在右半球。

hemisphere, but I didn't think we should get over excited about
但我认为我们不应该过于兴奋。

that. The point that you're making, I think, is that the
是的。我认为,你的观点是

business of being able to articulate something in language
语言表达能力

requires a certain degree of analysis and categorization, and
需要进行一定程度的分析和分类,以及

that the really important things in life don't lend themselves to
生命中真正重要的东西并不适合

this process and are famously ineffable. I mean, the divine,
这个过程,是著名的不可言传的。我是说,神性、

love, music all these things I keep coming back to, the
爱情、音乐,所有这些我一直回味的东西,都是

experience of beauty. These things are enormously limited if
美的体验。如果

I'm trying to do them in language, unless the language is
我试图用语言来完成它们,除非语言是

poetry. And I see poetry as the way of language undercutting
诗歌。我认为诗歌是语言削弱

itself, as it were, outwitting language, to do something that
其本身,就像在语言之外,做一些

an ordinary language can't do. And the interesting thing about
普通语言做不到的。有趣的是

poetry is that it's very much right hemisphere dependent,
诗歌在很大程度上依赖于右半球、

because it involves all this explicit, sorry, implicit things
因为它涉及到所有这些显性的,对不起,隐性的东西

like metaphors for a start and tone and associations of ideas
比如开始时的比喻、语气和思想联想

and so on. The right hemisphere is much better at this, the left
等等。右半球在这方面做得更好,左半球在这方面做得更好。

hemisphere can read a repair manual for lawn mower. But you
半球可以阅读割草机维修手册。但你

know what I mean, there's a difference between certain kinds
你明白我的意思吗?

of language. But broadly speaking, if your point was that
语言。但广而言之,如果你的观点是

something very important happened to the brain with the
大脑中发生了非常重要的事情

advent of language, and particularly speech, and that's
语言的出现,尤其是语音的出现,这就是

right, and it has favoured the left hemisphere over the right.
而且左半球比右半球更受青睐。

And so the left hemisphere dominated culture will see a
因此,左半球主导的文化将出现

decline in literature, in poetry and imagery?
文学、诗歌和意象的衰落?

Creativity in general, because it's so dependent on the ability
一般来说,创造力取决于以下能力

to hold many things together, that may not even look like
将许多东西连接在一起,而这些东西看起来甚至不像是

they, they gel- not collapsing them too soon into a certainty.
它们,它们凝结在一起--而不是过早地将它们归结为一种确定性。

The left hemisphere wants to know what this is. And we know
左半球想知道这是什么。我们知道

from accounts of creativity that the important thing is not to
从创造力的角度来看,重要的不是

say, 'oh, I see what it is.' Because as soon as you've done
说,'哦,我知道是什么了'。因为只要你做了

that, you've plonked it into a left hemisphere box with a label
你把它塞进了一个左半球的盒子里,标签上写着

on it. You have to actually resist that and allow the thing
上。你必须真正抵制这种情况,让事情

to come into being and then it will be a true poem, not just a
然后,它将成为一首真正的诗,而不仅仅是一首

piece of verse as it were.
就像诗句一样。

So you could argue that for over 50 years that we've rejected
因此,你可以说,50 多年来,我们拒绝了

this age of reason. If you look at Heidegger's existentialism,
这个理性时代。如果你看看海德格尔的存在主义、

post-structuralism, all these things reject systematising,
后结构主义,所有这些东西都拒绝系统化、

boxing, and doesn't leave anything in its place. But
拳击,不会在原地留下任何东西。但是

surely we're seeing the inverse within intellectual history.
当然,我们看到的是知识史上的反面。

It's not left hemisphere dominated, but at the same time,
它不是左半球主导的,但同时又是左半球主导的、

it doesn't seem to see any hole in it.
它似乎看不出任何破绽。

Well, you may or may not be right but as you know, you may
好吧,你可能是对的,也可能是错的,但你知道,你可能

be a professional philosopher, that Western philosophy
作为一名专业哲学家,西方哲学

departments are almost exclusively populated by people
这些部门几乎都是由以下人员组成的

who follow so called Anglo American analytic philosophy.
他们遵循所谓的英美分析哲学。

They laugh at Heidegger and so forth but Heidegger was I think,
他们嘲笑海德格尔等人,但我认为海德格尔就是这样的人、

somebody who was trying to articulate things that the right
有人试图表达正确的观点

hemisphere sees. The postmodern thing is a disaster, it's
半球看到的。后现代是一场灾难,它

basically collapsing into, 'there is nothing really there,
基本上可以归结为 "那里什么都没有"、

we make it all up.' And the two things that I am rejecting are
'。我拒绝的两件事是

that we make these all up, or that we have no part in making
这些都是我们编造出来的,或者说我们没有参与编造

what it is. One is naive idealism, the other is naive
是什么。一个是天真的理想主义,一个是天真的

realism. And actually, what is happening is- I keep saying
现实主义实际上,现在的情况是--我一直在说

this- a relationship. It's what our brain, our consciousness-
这种关系。这是我们的大脑、我们的意识--

better- does when it meets whatever it's experiencing that
当它遇到任何它正在经历的事情时,它就会做得更好。

brings them out reality. So I accept that in intellectual
把它们带出现实。因此,我接受在知识上

history, there has been a shift away from that narrowly analytic
在历史的长河中,这种狭隘的分析方法已经发生了转变。

way of thinking, but I'd say that's only in in pockets within
的思维方式,但我要说,这只是在小范围内

academia. And what is much more common is this,
学术界。更常见的情况是

poststructuralism, postmodernism that anything goes because
后结构主义、后现代主义认为一切皆有可能,因为

everything is equally true. Well, if everything's equally
一切都同样真实。那么,如果一切都同样

true, why don't we all just cut our throats now? I don't think
是啊,我们为什么不现在就割断自己的喉咙呢?我不认为

so at all. I believe there is such a thing as a truer view, a
根本不是这样。我相信有一种更真实的观点,一种

truer pronouncement. But it's not that there's something out
更真实的宣告。但这并不是说有什么东西出来了

there that we have to get to by a chain of reasoning. It's
我们必须通过一连串的推理才能得出结论。这是

something that we have to feel our way towards and have a sense
我们必须摸着石头过河,并有一种感觉

of, and then it comes more and more into being. It's a
然后它就会越来越多地出现。这是一个

responsive relational thing and you know when you're onto a path
有反应的关系,你就会知道你走到了哪条路上

that is somehow succeeding and approaching the truth. But you
这在某种程度上是成功的,是接近真相的。但你

could never be certain about it so it's always up for grabs.
所以永远都无法确定,所以永远都有争议。

There aren't any rules for defining what exactly is true.
没有任何规则可以定义什么是真实。

You see, because we say idolise rules and procedures, we think
你看,因为我们崇拜规则和程序,所以我们认为

if there aren't rules and procedures for something, then
如果没有规则和程序,那么

it can't really be real. But all of the really real things are
它不可能是真实的。但所有真正真实的东西都是

not susceptible to this proceduralisation I was just
我只是

having a conversation with a young man who's studying at
与一位在美国加州大学洛杉矶分校学习的年轻人交谈

Durham at the moment, and I just hinted in what we were saying
杜伦,我在刚才的谈话中已经暗示过了

that one of the problems with universities now, as with
现在大学的问题之一,就像

schools, as with the medical profession, and with the whole
学校、医学界以及整个

of life is the sudden explosion of bureaucratic procedures and
生活中突然爆发的官僚主义程序和

thinking. There are manuals upon manuals that you're supposed to
思考。有一本又一本的手册,你应该

read and observe and follow. And then we're surprised that
阅读、观察和跟踪。然后我们惊讶地发现

professionals who are skilled people who have learned things
专业人员,他们是学有所成的技术人员

through experience, want to leave the profession because
通过经验,想离开这个行业,因为

they're effed off with the general tenor of the way in
他们已经被"""""""""的大环境所影响

which they're cheated by managers who'd never been
他们被那些从未

teachers or doctors or whatever. I had a very, very distinguished
教师、医生什么的。我有一个非常非常杰出的

colleague who was a bit of a mentor of mine, the professor of
他的同事也算是我的良师益友。

neuro-psychiatry at the Maudsley and he was queried by a manager
他在莫兹利医院神经精神病科工作,一位经理问他

about why he'd sent a patient for a scan. And he said, when I
我问他为什么让病人去做扫描。他说,当我

have to explain to a manager, why I've sent a patient to a
必须向经理解释,为什么我把病人送到了一个

scan, it's time for me to leave the profession. And he did. And
扫描,我是时候离开这个行业了。他确实这么做了。而且

the people who really taught me knew what was what and they
真正教过我的人知道什么是什么,他们

communicated a fire to me, which was the gift, it wasn't
这是我的天赋,而不是

information. But if they'd had to fill out all these
信息。但如果他们不得不填写所有这些

questionnaires and be subject to guidance and rules and so on,
问卷调查,并接受指导和规则的约束等等、

they'd just have said no, forget it. I'm going to retire and
他们就会说不,算了吧。我要退休了

cultivate my garden. 开垦我的花园

Could we say, rather worrying, worrying me that we're living in
我们是否可以说,我们生活在一个令人担忧的时代?

a world where the very reasons for doubting are doubted and
在这个世界上,怀疑的理由本身就会被怀疑,而且

there is this crusade for certitude?
有这种对确定性的讨伐吗?

Absolutely. And by the way, that is entirely part of the
当然可以。顺便说一句,这完全是

hypothesis I'm putting forward because one of the first things
我提出这个假设是因为

that differentiates the hemispheres is the left
区分大脑半球的是左半球

hemisphere has to have certainty. There's a famous
半球必须有确定性。有一个著名的

picture used by Wittgenstein, which is actually taken from a
维特根斯坦使用的图片,实际上取自一幅

Victorian children's comic, which shows either a duck or a
维多利亚时代的儿童漫画,画的是一只鸭子或一只

rabbit, depending on how you look at it. And that the right
兔子,取决于你怎么看。右边的

hemisphere is able to hold those together without collapsing them
半球能够将它们固定在一起而不会坍塌

but the left hemisphere is unable to. It's either this is a
但左半球却做不到。这要么是

duck or it's a rabbit. What do you mean and that's its
鸭子还是兔子?什么意思?

attitude. It's cut and dried to everything. It's black and white
态度。凡事都一刀切。黑白分明

thinking, dogma, cut and dried thinking unnuanced thinking, the
思维、教条、一刀切的思维、不平衡的思维、

craving for certainty that lies behind our problems now. And
我们现在的问题背后是对确定性的渴望。还有

that is exactly an expression of the left hemisphere's mode of
这恰恰体现了左半球的模式。

being in this world, whereas the right hemisphere, I think I may
在这个世界上,而右半球,我想我可以

have mentioned this is the devil's advocate. It was so
我说过,这是魔鬼的代言人。它是如此

called by Ramachandran, a very great neuroscientist. It's the
拉马钱德兰是一位非常伟大的神经科学家。它是

one that says, 'yeah, but maybe not'. And if only we had more of
是的,但也许不是"。如果我们有更多的

that voice saying, 'yeah, but maybe not, let's have another
那个声音在说:'是的,但也许不是,我们再来一次吧

look.' We wouldn't be in the mess we're in.
看'。我们就不会陷入现在的困境。

I'm just going to abuse the chair for one second to ask a
我想滥用一下椅子,问一个问题

follow up question. Not this chair. The one area that we
后续问题。不是这位主席。我们

haven't spent much time on is what a lot of volume two of 'The
没有花太多时间去研究的是《侏罗纪世界》第二卷中的很多内容。

Matter with Things' which is more the spiritual, I suppose or
我想,'与事物有关的事项'更多的是精神层面的,或者说

the the sense of the sacred. And here we are, we're 40 metres
神圣感。我们在这里,我们有 40 米长

from Westminster Abbey. We're going to have a strange
来自威斯敏斯特教堂我们将有一个奇怪的

coronation ceremony there in two weeks time. Do you think this
加冕仪式。您认为这

must be part of the story mustn't it that that need for
这一定是故事的一部分,不是吗?

certainty is also an insecurity because there is an absence
确定性也是一种不安全感,因为缺乏

which religion used to fill in some way? How do we understand
宗教曾经以某种方式填补了这些空白?我们如何理解

that in a big picture?
从全局来看是这样吗?

I think to some extent, although I would say that any religion
我认为在某种程度上,虽然我要说任何宗教

that peddled certainties was not a religion, properly speaking.
正确地说,兜售确定性的宗教不是宗教。

It was a dogma or doctrine, which might or might not be
这是一种教条或学说,可能是,也可能不是

right. But most of the great theological thinkers and mystics
没错。但大多数伟大的神学思想家和神秘主义者

have emphasised this. Not that there's no reality about it,
强调了这一点。这并不是说没有现实意义、

they're very clear that there is but not that there is a single
他们很清楚,有,但不是说只有一个

way of thinking about this or realising it or seeing it.
的思维方式,或意识到这一点,或看到这一点。

Everybody has to make their own way there. And although you say
每个人都要走自己的路。虽然你说

there's this sense of the sacred, it's actually one
这种神圣感,实际上是一种

chapter, the last chapter. I put that there at the end, because I
章,也就是最后一章。我把它放在最后,因为我

thought if people have followed me this far, they're going to
我想,如果人们跟随我走了这么远,他们会

see the point, because a lot of people will just be put off by
因为很多人都会因为

the mention of the sacred or the divine. 'What? This guy is some
提到神圣或神性。什么?这家伙是个

sort of freaky basehead.' If I may reassure you, I wouldn't
一种怪异的基佬'。如果我可以向你保证,我不会

like to say exactly what I believe in religious terms but
我喜欢用宗教术语准确地表达我的信仰,但

what I definitely believe is that the great religions, all of
我坚信,伟大的宗教,所有的

them and the great mystical traditions of Buddhism and
它们与伟大的神秘传统佛教和

Taoism, and so on, have central truths that they hold in common,
道教等都有其共同的核心真理、

and that these are a kind of wisdom that are not appreciated,
而这些都是不被欣赏的智慧、

unless one is brought up in a tradition that helped one see
除非一个人从小受到的传统教育能帮助他看到

them. And our tradition is dead against seeing them. So it's
他们而我们的传统是坚决反对看到它们。所以

much simpler just to say, 'oh, it's all nonsense, because I
说'哦,这都是胡说八道,因为我

can't see any of this. I can't measure any of it.' But I don't
我看不到任何东西。我无法测量任何东西。但我不

think that that is reasonable, I'd be much more cautious and
我认为这是合理的,但我会更加谨慎和

say that on a matter of experience, those who have
就经验而言,那些已经

experience of such a realm, and I think I do... No voices or
我想我有这样的经验......没有声音或

supernormal anything but just in my appreciation of the world
特异功能,但只是我对世界的欣赏

since I was a young person that the beauty of it. It spoke to me
从我还是个年轻人的时候起,我就觉得它很美。它对我说

and still speaks to me of something beyond this realm.
它仍然在向我诉说着一些超越现实的东西。

When I first heard the great polyphony of Renaissance, I
当我第一次听到文艺复兴时期伟大的复调音乐时,我

thought this is intellectual. Yes, it can move the emotions
认为这是知识性的。是的,它能打动人的情感

yes but it's not primarily either intellectual or
是的,但它主要不是知识性的或

emotional. In fact, it's spiritual.
情绪化事实上,这是一种精神。

Thank you for the talk. Very interesting. There is no
感谢您的演讲。非常有趣。没有

shortage today of apps teaching you mindfulness. I was wondering
今天,教你 "正念 "的应用程序短缺。我想知道

if you could have any examples of safe practices that would
如果您能举例说明哪些安全措施可以

focus on this right brain thinking. How should I call it?
注重右脑思维。我该怎么称呼它呢?

'Mind-halfness', or something like that? And I'm aware, it's a
心灵的一半",还是类似的东西?我知道,这是一个

dumb question. Because you're trying to do Gestalt switch,
愚蠢的问题。因为你想做格式塔转换、

you're not trying to just give a body of content, 'have this, do
你不是要提供一个内容体系,'有这个,做那个

that'. But I'm curious what you think about it? It's a very good question. You really answered it, that one of
那'。但我很好奇你是怎么想的?这是个很好的问题。你真的回答了,其中一个

the procedures, one of the ritual practices that one could
在这些程序中,有一种仪式做法可以

have would be mindfulness. And I believe it is extremely
那就是 "正念"。我认为它非常

valuable. And effectively what it is doing is recruiting the
很有价值。实际上,它正在招募

right hemisphere's attention to the world in a peaceful and deep
让右半球以一种平和而深刻的方式关注世界

way, while silencing the chattering left hemisphere,
方式,同时让喋喋不休的左半球安静下来、

which, as you know, in that literature is referred to as
如你所知,该文献将其称为

'monkey mind'. We're always rushing to verbalise, to judge
猴子思维我们总是急于用语言表达、评判

things, instead of actually allowing them to declare
而不是真正让他们宣布

themselves fully. And in 'The Matter with Things', I do quote
自己的全部。在《事物的本质》中,我确实引用了这样一段话

a long passage from a Buddhist monk who is considered an
长篇大论,出自一位被认为是

authority on mindfulness. And I quote this fairly short passage
心智方面的权威。我引用这段相当短的文字

and indicate 23 things in it, which indicate a right
并指出其中的 23 件事,这些事表明有权

hemisphere preference over a left one. So I think that is a
因此,我认为这就是 "半球偏好",而不是 "左半球偏好"。因此,我认为这是一个

valuable practice, thank you. But also allowing one's mind to
宝贵的实践,谢谢。但也要让自己的心灵

be free to and pay proper attention to music, not just
自由地欣赏音乐,适当地关注音乐,而不仅仅是

have it on in the background to sort of make you feel calm