尬上了热搜，真没想到
Length: • 1 min
Annotated by howie.serious
两个文化人—— Two cultured people
李娟。 Li Juan.
今年热播的《我的阿勒泰》原作者，被网友亲切称呼为“娟姨”。
The original author of this year's popular show "My Altay," affectionately called "Aunt Juan" by netizens.
董宇辉。 Dong Yuhui.
喜欢苏东坡，喜欢引用张载的“为天地立心，为生民立命……”，能够在直播间里脱口而出：“天体行星是浪漫，三餐四季也是浪漫；山川湖泊是浪漫，柴米油盐也是浪漫。”
Likes Su Dongpo, likes to quote Zhang Zai's "Establish a heart for heaven and earth, establish a life for the people...," and can spontaneously say in the live broadcast room: "The movement of celestial bodies is romantic, and so are the three meals and four seasons; mountains, rivers, and lakes are romantic, and so are the daily necessities."
两个人的相遇，本以为是最适配的组合。 The meeting of two people, initially thought to be the most compatible combination.
没想到却带来今年最出圈的一场尬聊。 Unexpectedly, it brought about the most awkward conversation of the year.
直播中，董宇辉用排比小作文夸李娟： During the live broadcast, Dong Yuhui praised Li Juan with a series of parallel sentences:
“很多人喜欢你的欲言又止，喜欢你的纠结，喜欢你的犹豫，喜欢你的过度思虑和自我否定……”
Many people like your hesitation to speak, like your indecision, like your overthinking and self-doubt...
李娟此刻的眼神里闪过了许多问号，但又不好保持沉默，最后只能尴尬回应：
At this moment, many question marks flashed in Li Juan's eyes, but she couldn't remain silent, so she awkwardly responded:
“谢谢，真是一坨巨大的……赞美。” Thank you, it really is a huge... compliment.
网友认真数了数—— Netizens carefully counted—
两个小时的直播，李娟七次想结束谈话。 During the two-hour live broadcast, Li Juan tried to end the conversation seven times.
当然。 Of course.
事后李娟做出了回应，说她对董宇辉的印象很美好，“一坨”只是四川人习惯用词，让大家不要借题发挥。
Afterwards, Li Juan responded, saying that she had a very good impression of Dong Yuhui, and "a lump" is just a common phrase used by people from Sichuan, asking everyone not to overinterpret it.
出于好奇，Sir也看完了整场直播。 Out of curiosity, Sir also watched the entire live broadcast.
翻车了？ Did it go wrong?
其实并不是全程都那么尬，但也有一种水土不服的感觉。
Actually, it wasn't awkward the whole time, but there was a sense of incompatibility.
这并不能都怪董宇辉。 This can't all be blamed on Dong Yuhui.
问题是—— The problem is—
01
尬聊，还是因为直播流程 Awkward conversation, still because of the live broadcast process
抛开内容输出。 Putting aside content output.
如果从商业角度看，董宇辉和李娟的这场直播相当成功——
From a business perspective, the live broadcast by Dong Yuhui and Li Juan was quite successful—
观看人次30万，图书销量17万册。 300,000 views, 170,000 books sold.
放哪个平台都算顶流了吧。 It would be considered top-tier on any platform.
但问题是。 But the problem is.
It's very difficult to achieve both a live-streaming sales event and a high-quality cultural interview at the same time.
尤其是对于李娟这样不太熟悉直播流程的嘉宾来说。 Especially for guests like Li Juan who are not very familiar with the live-streaming process.
哪怕，团队精心选择了地点，在天山脚下，氛围感拉满。
Even if the team carefully chose the location at the foot of the Tianshan Mountains, creating a full atmosphere.
董宇辉也在努力淡化带货的色彩，说是“找娟姨聊聊”。
Dong Yuhui is also trying to downplay the sales aspect, saying it's "just a chat with Aunt Juan."
但整个谈话，无形中是要往某个方向引导的。 But the entire conversation was subtly guided in a certain direction.
比如直播开始，一只小松鼠乱入，这本来是一个让嘉宾松弛的好机会。
For example, at the start of the live broadcast, a little squirrel unexpectedly appeared, which was originally a good opportunity for the guest to relax.
但或许是直播议程不允许，李娟没有接触小松鼠，只是摄影师给了特写。
But perhaps due to the live broadcast schedule, Li Juan did not interact with the squirrel, and only the photographer gave it a close-up.
而对董宇辉来说，让他逐渐乱了节奏的原因是—— As for Dong Yuhui, the reason he gradually lost his rhythm was—
那套驾轻就熟的“小作文”输出，遇冷了。 That set of well-practiced "little essays" met with a cold reception.
李娟不仅不接茬，还见招拆招。 Li Juan not only doesn't respond, but also counters every move.
比如董宇辉总想从李娟的经历中提炼出一些闪光点： For example, Dong Yuhui always tries to extract some highlights from Li Juan's experiences:
“所有的矛盾缺点，背后都有一束人性的光，那就是善良。”
Behind every contradiction and flaw, there is a beam of humanity, which is kindness.
“谢谢娟姨的挣扎。” Thank you, Aunt Juan, for your struggle.
而李娟好像只能尬笑。 But Li Juan seems to only be able to give an awkward smile.
在比如说，李娟没有结婚，独居生活，被不少网友奉为是“财富自由、精神富足”的标杆。
For example, Li Juan is not married and lives alone, and is regarded by many netizens as a model of "financial freedom and spiritual abundance."
董宇辉呢，也想顺着“民意”夸夸娟姨： Dong Yuhui also wants to praise Aunt Juan in line with "public opinion":
“宁要高质量的独居，不要低质量陪伴。” Better to have high-quality solitude than low-quality companionship.
怎么样，这句话今天网上很多人都想要点赞对吧。 How about it, a lot of people online want to like this sentence today, right?
其实董宇辉说的一点问题没有。 Actually, there is nothing wrong with what Dong Yuhui said.
只不过让他意外的是，李娟比他想象的更加“特立独行”，她居然反驳了这种观点：
What surprised him, however, was that Li Juan was even more "unique" than he had imagined, and she actually refuted this view:
哪怕再恶劣的关系 Even in the worst relationships
你和一个很差劲的人在一起 You are with a very bad person
很痛苦 Very painful
但这种痛苦能让你保持 But this pain can keep you
某种冷静 A certain calmness
某种清醒 A certain clarity
也是一种力量的滋长 Is also a kind of growth of strength
李娟是故意要拆台吗？ Is Li Juan deliberately trying to sabotage?
其实也不是。 Actually, no.
从她的另一场直播你也能窥见端倪—— You can also glimpse clues from her other live broadcast—
刚说了几句人生感悟，大家听得津津有味，她却吐槽自己在说鸡汤。
She just shared some life insights, everyone was listening with great interest, but she complained that she was giving a pep talk.
你过得再好 No matter how well you live
你还是觉得自己不好 You still feel that you are not doing well
还是鸡汤 哈哈 Still a pep talk, haha
李娟警惕鸡汤。 Li Juan is wary of chicken soup.
所以当董宇辉用小作文的形式，表达对她的赞美的时候，她没有欣然接过来，喝下去。
So when Dong Yuhui expressed his admiration for her in the form of a short essay, she did not readily accept it and drink it down.
她还想保留更多一点的——真。 She still wants to retain a bit more—truth.
比起一些“金句”和“思想升华”。 Compared to some "golden quotes" and "sublime thoughts."
而这，反过来又让董宇辉一下接不住了。 And this, in turn, made Dong Yuhui unable to respond.
比如，董宇辉说自己小时候不自信，被起外号大头娃娃，李娟很自然地接了一句：哈哈，你现在也是呀！
For example, Dong Yuhui said that he was not confident when he was a child and was nicknamed "Big Head Doll." Li Juan naturally responded: Haha, you still are now!
董宇辉一边听一边埋头记笔记。 Dong Yuhui listened while taking notes.
李娟吐槽：又不是开会，你记啥呢？ Li Juan teased: It's not a meeting, what are you taking notes for?
董宇辉这个时候已经紧绷了起来，无奈表示，这只是自己的个人习惯，记个笔记都不行吗？
At this point, Dong Yuhui was already tense and helplessly said that it was just his personal habit. Can't he even take notes?
李娟意识到自己一句玩笑可能冒犯了对方，又连忙道歉。
Li Juan realized that her joke might have offended the other person and quickly apologized.
这个时候，对话就已经陷入尴尬了。 At this point, the conversation had already become awkward.
两个人在对话中的磕碰，来自于彼此相反的方向—— The friction in their conversation came from opposite directions—
董宇辉想往上起调门。 Dong Yuhui wanted to raise the tone.
输出一个，精神丰盈而自由，能将偏僻的阿勒泰变成诗和远方的文艺女神李娟。
Output one, a spiritually rich and free literary goddess Li Juan, who can turn the remote Altay into poetry and distant places.
但李娟却往下贴近土壤。 But Li Juan gets closer to the soil.
展示出平凡的一面，也会充满纠结和痛苦，人生不是鸡汤，更不是爽文。
Showing an ordinary side, it will also be full of entanglement and pain. Life is not chicken soup, nor is it a feel-good story.
是的。 Yes.
在这种确定的流程中，其实已经预设了嘉宾的发挥，只不过没想到的是，李娟较真了。
In this predetermined process, the guest's performance was actually preset, but what was unexpected was that Li Juan took it seriously.
02
只有捧，谈不出真东西 Only flattery, no real substance can be discussed.
李娟说自己是一个并不善于交际的人。 Li Juan said she is not a person who is good at socializing.
她在这场直播中的表现，有点让人联想起电视剧《我的阿勒泰》中内向怯生的李文秀。
Her performance in this live broadcast somewhat reminds people of the introverted and timid Li Wenxiu in the TV series "My Altay".
她似乎不太懂得应付这样的场面。 She doesn't seem to know how to handle such a situation.
同样是来直播间卖书，余华面对董宇辉的激情安利、提炼解读《活着》。
Similarly, when selling books in the live broadcast room, Yu Hua faced Dong Yuhui's passionate recommendation and interpretation of "To Live".
他直接：对对对，宇辉讲《活着》比我好。 He directly said: Yes, yes, yes, Yuhui explains "To Live" better than I do.
董宇辉问余华：《活着》是说到最后，人跟苦难和解了吗？
Dong Yuhui asked Yu Hua: In "To Live", does it mean that in the end, people reconcile with suffering?
余华笑着说：对，就是这样。 Yu Hua smiled and said: Yes, that's right.
其实吧，在这种场合下还真是这样。 Actually, in this kind of situation, it really is like this.
对就完了。 Just agree and it's fine.
因为这是一场直播。 Because this is a live broadcast.
本身就不具备进行深度探究的空间，作家过来，也就是热热场子。
It inherently lacks the space for in-depth exploration. Writers come over just to liven things up.
那么，回到李娟。 So, back to Li Juan.
不是她不想聊，恰恰是她还指望聊出点实在的话来。 It's not that she doesn't want to chat, it's precisely that she hopes to have a meaningful conversation.
只不过没遇到合适的契机。 It's just that she hasn't encountered the right opportunity.
在之前一场凤凰网的直播，她其实就聊得很深入、很尽兴。
In a previous live broadcast on Phoenix Net, she actually had a very deep and enjoyable conversation.
主持人是凤凰网读书频道的主编，也是李娟多年的书粉，她俩很早就认识。
The host was the editor-in-chief of the Phoenix Net Book Channel and a long-time fan of Li Juan's books; they have known each other for a long time.
提问也是紧跟潮流，结合年轻人关心的话题，引导作家给出鲜明的态度。
The questions were also very trendy, combining topics that young people care about, guiding the writer to give clear opinions.
主持人魏冰心：你明明没有姨味，为什么要叫自己娟姨？
Host Wei Bingxin: You obviously don't have an "auntie" vibe, so why do you call yourself Aunt Juan?
李娟回答： Li Juan answered:
少女化是件挺可怕的事 Being overly youthful is quite a scary thing
执着于自己的青春和容貌 Being obsessed with one's youth and appearance
真的很可怕 is really very scary
所以我希望自己是一个姨 So I hope to be an aunt
是一个能够正常面对衰老的人 To be someone who can face aging normally
这场直播是在《我的阿勒泰》结局后，来看的人多数是粉丝。
This live broadcast took place after the ending of "My Altay", and most of the viewers were fans.
但面对这么多剧粉。 But facing so many drama fans.
李娟却相当冒犯地说：很讨厌《我的阿勒泰》。 Li Juan said quite offensively: I really hate "My Altay".
主持人脸都僵了。 The host's face froze.
李娟还要继续说—— Li Juan continued to speak—
讨厌《我的阿勒泰》，是讨厌当时写作中的算计心，写的每一句话都太在意、太精准预判读者的反应了。
The dislike for "My Altay" comes from the calculated mindset during its writing; every sentence was too concerned with and precisely predicted the readers' reactions.
这是一场没有彩虹屁和正能量的访谈。 This is an interview without flattery or positive energy.
但很多网友依然感受到—— But many netizens still felt—
被李娟的真性情治愈了。 Healed by Li Juan's true nature.
一个高质量的采访，不能只是上价值、正能量。 A high-quality interview cannot just be about values and positive energy.
而是要挖掘出一个人连自己都不曾意识到的“隐秘的角落”。
It should uncover the "hidden corners" that even the person themselves may not be aware of.
而空对空的对话呢？ And what about empty conversations?
大概就是，一来二去之后，很难不让气氛陷入尴尬吧。 Probably, after a back-and-forth, it's hard not to let the atmosphere become awkward.
03
高质量的文化访谈，都去哪了 Where have all the high-quality cultural interviews gone?
Sir想起了一个余华分享的故事。 Sir remembered a story shared by Yu Hua.
80年代，他给文学杂志投稿，主编一看，哟，惊为天人。
In the 1980s, he submitted to a literary magazine, and the editor-in-chief was amazed.
但距离发表，只剩下一个难处——在我们的国家，不可能有这么阴暗的事情。
But there was only one obstacle to publication—such dark things couldn't possibly happen in our country.
于是余华用了一天，去把结尾改光明了。 So Yu Hua spent a day changing the ending to make it brighter.
而今天呢，好像事事处处，都要安上一条光明的尾巴。
And today, it seems like everything, everywhere, needs to be adorned with a bright tail.
一个人，一段经历，本身的感悟不是最重要的。 A person, an experience, the personal insights are not the most important.
重要的是，一定要提炼出积极向上的价值观输出。 What is important is to extract and convey positive and uplifting values.
董宇辉比起其他卖货直播间，质量还是相对较高的。 Compared to other live streaming sales, Dong Yuhui's quality is still relatively high.
好词佳句信手拈来。 Good words and beautiful sentences come easily.
这用在一个玉米，一块牛排上，或许是加分项。 This can be used on corn, a steak, or perhaps as a bonus.
但这种好词好句，放到和作家的对谈中，就不再是加分，成了限制交流的天花板。
But such good words and phrases, when placed in a conversation with a writer, are no longer a bonus but become a ceiling that limits communication.
当然，不是说董宇辉不能采访作家，也不是说他今后一定不能发挥好。
Of course, it doesn't mean that Dong Yuhui cannot interview writers, nor does it mean that he won't be able to perform well in the future.
而是今天一想到文化推广，知名作家也好，地方文旅也好，好像就没有别的更好的渠道了。
It's just that today, when we think of cultural promotion, whether it's a famous writer or local cultural tourism, it seems like there are no better channels.
有的网友说。 Some netizens said.
最适合采访李娟的，不是董宇辉，而是许知远。 The most suitable person to interview Li Juan is not Dong Yuhui, but Xu Zhiyuan.
对啊。 Yes.
今天我们还能看得津津有味的访谈节目，只剩下窦文涛的《圆桌派》和许知远的《十三邀》了。
Nowadays, the only interview programs we can still watch with great interest are Dou Wentao's "Round Table" and Xu Zhiyuan's "Thirteen Invitations."
但它们，也做到第八年了。 But they have also been running for eight years.
这么长时间过去，能玩的转文化领域的，好像还是只有老一辈人。
After such a long time, it seems that only the older generation can still handle the cultural field.
这两年，也有一些文学综艺。 In the past two years, there have also been some literary variety shows.
《文学的日常》。 The Daily Life of Literature.
回到作家的故乡，探讨作品和乡土的爱恨联结。 Returning to the hometown of the writer, exploring the love-hate connection between the works and the local land.
《我在岛屿读书》。 Reading on the Island.
作家聚在一起读书，随性分享对文学的感悟。 Writers gather together to read books and casually share their insights on literature.
但能让你激情转发的金句和名场面呢？ But what about the golden quotes and iconic scenes that make you passionately share?
好像越来越少了。 They seem to be getting fewer and fewer.
余华被大家讨论最多的，“写作不是为了理想，而是为了不给人看牙”的段子，来自1998年的线下文学论坛。
The most discussed anecdote about Yu Hua, "Writing is not for ideals, but to avoid seeing the dentist," comes from an offline literary forum in 1998.
前面说到的改结尾小故事，来自四年前贾樟柯的纪录片《一直游到海水变蓝》。
The little story about changing the ending mentioned earlier comes from Jia Zhangke's documentary "Swimming Until the Sea Turns Blue" four years ago.
莫言得过诺贝尔文学奖，接受过的采访根本数不完。 Mo Yan has won the Nobel Prize in Literature and has given countless interviews.
但最能释放出他个性的。 But what best releases his personality.
仍然是20多年前的《周二不读书》。 It is still "Tuesday No Reading" from more than 20 years ago.
一个敢问。 One dares to ask.
一个敢说。 One dares to answer.
50多分钟一气呵成，毫不冷场，句句经典。 Over 50 minutes of continuous flow, never a dull moment, every sentence is classic.
蔡康永问： Cai Kangyong asked:
你有一篇小说被杂志社退稿了，还是成名之后，到底怎么回事呢？
You had a novel rejected by a magazine, even after you became famous. What exactly happened?
莫言不紧不慢。 Mo Yan responded unhurriedly.
先是对同行一顿直言不讳的批评—— First, he gave a straightforward critique of his peers—
那些军旅小说，今天打完仗，明天就出稿，各种模仿苏联，太肤浅了。
Those military novels, they finish the battle today and publish tomorrow, all kinds of imitation of the Soviet Union, too superficial.
莫言的作品，不歌颂英雄主义。 Mo Yan's works do not glorify heroism.
而是着眼于战争本身的荒诞。 Instead, they focus on the absurdity of war itself.
我觉得世界上很多变成了英雄的人，本身并不具备什么英雄素质，而很多具有英雄素质的人，可能一上战场，就被一枪打死了，那他就是窝囊而不是英雄；而恰好一个胆小如鼠的人，一枪正好打掉了敌人的一架飞机，于是他变成了英雄，这跟传统的这种军事文学有很大的差别。
I think many people who have become heroes in the world do not inherently possess heroic qualities, while many who do have heroic qualities might be shot dead as soon as they go to the battlefield, making them cowards rather than heroes. Conversely, a timid person might accidentally shoot down an enemy plane and become a hero, which is very different from traditional military literature.
多年以后，莫言拿了诺贝尔文学奖，央视采访。 Many years later, Mo Yan won the Nobel Prize in Literature, and CCTV interviewed him.
这时的问题，标准到像在参加语文考试—— The questions at that time were as standard as if they were participating in a Chinese language exam—
您的获奖，会带来文学土壤的改变吗？ Will your award bring changes to the literary landscape?
您如何评价当下的文学氛围呢？ How do you evaluate the current literary atmosphere?
您觉得文学如何影响社会进程？ How do you think literature influences the progress of society?
…… ...
面对这些缺乏创造力的提问，莫言的妙语连珠也毫无用武之地，只好硬着头皮，配合客套。
Faced with these uninspired questions, Mo Yan's witty responses were of no use, and he had to reluctantly cooperate with polite answers.
直到记者问出最后一个无关紧要的问题。 Until the reporter asked the last irrelevant question.
反而就激发出莫言的真性情。 Instead, it inspired Mo Yan's true nature.
两年前。 Two years ago.
莫言跟B站合作一个视频。 Mo Yan collaborated with Bilibili on a video.
其中，他提到最多的一句话是： Among them, the sentence he mentioned the most was:
不要被大风吹倒。 Don't be blown down by the strong wind.
从尖锐犀利的真性情、真批评，到尽力保持一点真实的有趣，对时代一些委婉的回应。
From sharp and incisive true nature and true criticism, to trying to maintain a bit of genuine fun, to some subtle responses to the times.
再到今天—— To today—
主打一个，谁听了都高兴的温暖、励志、正能量。 Mainly focusing on warmth, inspiration, and positive energy that makes everyone happy.
在镜头前。 In front of the camera.
顶级作家的语气变化，或许也代表了环境的变化，和我们对真实的接受程度。
The change in tone of top writers may also represent changes in the environment and our acceptance of reality.
就像当年的余华，只是把阴暗的结尾改成光明，他说要全篇改，对方还不让。
Just like Yu Hua back in the day, he only changed the dark ending to a bright one. He said he wanted to change the whole piece, but the other party wouldn't allow it.
但再后来。 But later on.
好像是从立意上，就得强调正能量。 It seems that from the conception, it has to emphasize positive energy.
再再后来。 Later and later.
是删掉核心剧情，核心人物。 It's about deleting the core plot and core characters.
最后，彻底面目全非，作者都认不出自己的作品。 In the end, it becomes completely unrecognizable, and the author can't even recognize their own work.
于是。 So.
我们假装还热爱文化。 We pretend to still love culture.
挤在卖货直播间里，听着堆砌辞藻的安利，逢场作戏地尬聊。
Squeezed into the live sales room, listening to the flowery sales pitches, making awkward small talk just for show.
仿佛激情下单了，今天就又拥有诗和远方了。 As if placing an enthusiastic order today means you will have poetry and distant places again.
我们假装还关心社会。 We pretend to still care about society.
但一到了公开发言中，好像又被内置了某种人工智能芯片，自动把语言调整成乖乖就范的论调……
But when it comes to public speaking, it seems like some kind of artificial intelligence chip is built-in, automatically adjusting the language to a compliant tone...
文化类访谈，终究要变成千篇一律。 Cultural interviews eventually become monotonous.
这个时候，也许尬聊都成了一种不合时宜的精彩。 At this point, even awkward conversations might become an untimely brilliance.
本文图片来自网络 The images in this article are from the internet.
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